Non-Hockey => Polls, Polls, Polls, What Sayeth You => Topic started by: winterfan on July 18, 2008, 08:10:27 AM

Title: Non Citizens
Post by: winterfan on July 18, 2008, 08:10:27 AM
I am in a  debate with a few people over this.For what ever reasont hey feel canada should help non citizens that run into legal trouble etc.I have a very big probleam with helping non citizens am alone on this.
Title: Re: Non Citizens
Post by: Broken Bones on July 18, 2008, 08:43:56 AM
Are you talking about people who hold absolutely no Canadian Citizenship and reside around the world, or non Canadian Citizens who live and work in Canada and are permitted to do so by law, or people who live outside of Canada yet hold Canadian Citizenship?
Title: Re: Non Citizens
Post by: winterfan on July 18, 2008, 09:36:05 AM
Are you talking about people who hold absolutely no Canadian Citizenship and reside around the world, or non Canadian Citizens who live and work in Canada and are permitted to do so by law, or people who live outside of Canada yet hold Canadian Citizenship?

From the people i talked to there exzact words are this.Canada should protect any non citizen that does not have a canadian citizenship.
Title: Re: Non Citizens
Post by: Broken Bones on July 18, 2008, 09:42:38 AM
If that is the case, I would have to absolutely disagree. We have a deteriorating medical system, current Canadians within Canada are having difficulty getting the help they need when it comes to social and economical issues, etc.  I have no issues helping other countries, with aid, but not something such as legal representation.
Title: Re: Non Citizens
Post by: Jasonf6 on July 18, 2008, 10:24:51 AM
The way I take this arguement is to mean do we protect immigrants who hold a Canadian citizenship but decide to return to their country of origin and get into legal trouble.  Take for instance that journalist that returned to Iran only to get arrested and beaten in custody.  I DO NOT condone her treatment but I also do NOT support the Canadian government launching a legal battle against the government of Iran over this.  That journalist made the concious decision to go to Iran knowing full well the dangers of doing so (especially as a femal journalist).  Then we have this Khadr thing.  The guy spent VERY LITTLE time actually in Canada after his birth.  He was caught after the battle in which he threw a grenade that killed a US soldier.  Why should we as a country bend over backwards to help those who only use us as a safe haven for their activities?  They throw our freedoms in our face only to come crying when they need help because they got caught doing something illegal.

Another thing to look at is those who come here only to engage in illegal activities from the get-go.  Every time I see a story in the paper about a massive grow-up bust or whatever, those involved are almost always 90% Vietnamese.  Why don't we have a system where it's automatic deportation back to the country you threw away in order to live the "good life" in Canada.  If you don't value what we have here, why should we help you now?
Title: Re: Non Citizens
Post by: winterfan on July 18, 2008, 10:38:30 AM
Jason
The debate i am in they feel people here not legal should have the same rights.
Title: Re: Non Citizens
Post by: Jasonf6 on July 18, 2008, 11:13:57 AM
Jason
The debate i am in they feel people here not legal should have the same rights.

Ok, I disagree with them then.  The rights and privileges are paid for by taxes.  If you are not a Canadian citizen you shouldn't expect to have us take care of you.  Now, with that said, you can't just stand and watch someone die in front of you.  They should be helped and then sent on their way. 

Of course, that above doesn't take into accoun the varioius charities and organizations out there that work off of sponsors and whatnot, but a lot of them are funded by the government too. 

What we need, if we don't already have it, is something like the US Marshals and their Project Watchdog (I think).  They rounded up something like 16,000+ illegals in their latest sweep. 
Title: Re: Non Citizens
Post by: Broken Bones on July 18, 2008, 11:22:22 AM
Keep in mind now Jason there are people in Canada who are legally allowed to be here yet are not Canadian citizens.  Those people should be receiving the same rights and protection as Canadian citizens as they came here and followed the necessary process to be in and work in Canada.
Title: Re: Non Citizens
Post by: Bonzai on July 18, 2008, 12:11:35 PM
I'm a bit confused.  Should residents withiin Canada who are here illegally (no visa) be afforded the same rights as a non-canadian who went throught the proper channels or is a refugee.  If that is so, categorically not.  The only right they should be afforded is the right to be picked up by custom agents/police, detained and shipped back to their homeland.  This person does not have a right to be here nor the option to work nor seek medical care however if this person had a severe medical emergency they would be treated on our dime.  If someone wants to be here they should go through the proper channels and quite que jumping
Title: Re: Non Citizens
Post by: moxie on July 18, 2008, 12:38:34 PM
Many of the people who are legally allowed to live and work here but not citizens are NOT refugees. Many students have study permits, then go on to get post-graduate work permits/etc.
Title: Re: Non Citizens
Post by: Special J on August 27, 2008, 11:13:09 AM
I don't get this question.  If this is about legal representation, then everyone in our courts needs legal representation.  Irregardless of how they got there.
Title: Re: Non Citizens
Post by: Docawesome on August 27, 2008, 02:49:45 PM
I dont exzactly under stand the quoustion.
Title: Re: Non Citizens
Post by: Broken Bones on September 03, 2008, 08:34:14 AM
Me neither, because as it is put out there one can have two understandings as to what is being asked. Non citizens being those in Canada but are not citizens, be it they are here legally or not, or non citizens as in those around the globe and have no connection to Canada.
Title: Re: Non Citizens
Post by: Jasonf6 on September 03, 2008, 05:55:27 PM
Keep in mind now Jason there are people in Canada who are legally allowed to be here yet are not Canadian citizens.  Those people should be receiving the same rights and protection as Canadian citizens as they came here and followed the necessary process to be in and work in Canada.

Do you mean those 13 or 17 people busted in that HUGE ASS drug ring bust that are all from Vietnam?  I'm not in favour of letting people immigrate here only to do what they've done.  Hell, of most of the drug rings that the media has reported on, damn near 90% of the people involved are from Vietnam.  Chine deported a Canadian for just mentioning Tibet (in a huge banner hung from a building mind you), why don't we just deport these pot growers? 

I'm all for protecting those who immigrate here, contribute to society, and don't take what they have for granted.  But not for one second will I be ok with people coming here only to live the life of crime like that drug ring did.  Spend the $3,000 per person to fly them back to Vietnam and save the tax payers the millions it's going to cost to keep them in prison.
Title: Re: Non Citizens
Post by: Broken Bones on September 03, 2008, 06:23:36 PM
Do you mean those 13 or 17 people busted in that HUGE ASS drug ring bust that are all from Vietnam?  I'm not in favour of letting people immigrate here only to do what they've done.  Hell, of most of the drug rings that the media has reported on, damn near 90% of the people involved are from Vietnam.  Chine deported a Canadian for just mentioning Tibet (in a huge banner hung from a building mind you), why don't we just deport these pot growers? 

I'm all for protecting those who immigrate here, contribute to society, and don't take what they have for granted.  But not for one second will I be ok with people coming here only to live the life of crime like that drug ring did.  Spend the $3,000 per person to fly them back to Vietnam and save the tax payers the millions it's going to cost to keep them in prison.

Because our laws are innocent until proven guilty, in order for that to happen everybody has a right to a fair trial.
Title: Re: Non Citizens
Post by: psahlgren on September 03, 2008, 07:36:18 PM
there are people in Canada who are legally allowed to be here yet are not Canadian citizens.  Those people should be receiving the same rights and protection as Canadian citizens as they came here and followed the necessary process to be in and work in Canada.
People like me :laugh2:
Title: Re: Non Citizens
Post by: FV on September 03, 2008, 07:51:00 PM
Friggin' Swedes are taking over!!!   :laugh2:
Title: Re: Non Citizens
Post by: butterfly_style on September 04, 2008, 09:58:28 AM
. . . why don't we just deport these pot growers? 
I'm all for protecting those who immigrate here, contribute to society....
I guess it depends on your definition of "contribution to society" :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Non Citizens
Post by: psahlgren on September 04, 2008, 11:24:22 AM
Friggin' Swedes are taking over!!!   :laugh2:
:mrgreen:
Title: Re: Non Citizens
Post by: Jasonf6 on September 04, 2008, 03:43:37 PM
Because our laws are innocent until proven guilty, in order for that to happen everybody has a right to a fair trial.

Oh for sure, but it doesn't take a genius to realize that after the length of the sting, the cops have enough to prove them guilty.  And it's not like they are the first Vietnamese led grow-op we've seen. 

However, once they are proven guilty, ship them back.
Title: Re: Non Citizens
Post by: Broken Bones on September 04, 2008, 04:51:57 PM
Oh for sure, but it doesn't take a genius to realize that after the length of the sting, the cops have enough to prove them guilty.  And it's not like they are the first Vietnamese led grow-op we've seen. 

However, once they are proven guilty, ship them back.

You say that, but you do also realize that it is also easy for police officers to compile evidence against innocent people to get a guilty conviction, or scare them into pleading guilty?

I am not sure where I stand once they are found guilty, because frankly be deporting them you are letting them walk for their crimes, who is to say they simply will not return to Canada?
Title: Re: Non Citizens
Post by: Jasonf6 on September 04, 2008, 06:04:15 PM
You say that, but you do also realize that it is also easy for police officers to compile evidence against innocent people to get a guilty conviction, or scare them into pleading guilty?

I am not sure where I stand once they are found guilty, because frankly be deporting them you are letting them walk for their crimes, who is to say they simply will not return to Canada?

True enough that police can compile evidence but I just hope they don't do that.

As for returning to Canada, don't they get flagged in Immigration so that they can't return under any circumstances?  And as for letting them walk, do you think their life back in Vietnam could compare to what they had here in any way?  For A LOT of people even living on welfare here is WAY better than back in their home country working their asses off. 

Title: Re: Non Citizens
Post by: Broken Bones on September 04, 2008, 08:42:46 PM
True enough that police can compile evidence but I just hope they don't do that.

As for returning to Canada, don't they get flagged in Immigration so that they can't return under any circumstances?  And as for letting them walk, do you think their life back in Vietnam could compare to what they had here in any way?  For A LOT of people even living on welfare here is WAY better than back in their home country working their asses off. 



I would not go that far, have you ever seen the life of one who is on welfare? Canada does sweet **** all when it comes to helping out those below the poverty line.

And you say you hope police wouldn't compile evidence against an innocent person, studying law, it has happened too many times for me to simply hope it doesn't happen.
Title: Re: Non Citizens
Post by: FV on September 04, 2008, 08:49:55 PM
I would not go that far, have you ever seen the life of one who is on welfare? Canada does sweet **** all when it comes to helping out those below the poverty line.

I agree with Jason (did I just say that???  :laugh2:).  I think Canadians on welfare have a higher standard of living than most people on this PLANET!!!  I'm not exaggerating either.
Title: Re: Non Citizens
Post by: Broken Bones on September 04, 2008, 09:04:49 PM
I agree with Jason (did I just say that???  :laugh2:).  I think Canadians on welfare have a higher standard of living than most people on this PLANET!!!  I'm not exaggerating either.

I wouldn't say most.  Just how much research, how much detail do you know about Canadians on welfare besides them receiving government cheques?  These people are lucky to have a roof over their heads, but be damned looking at some of the places they live in is scary in itself.
Title: Re: Non Citizens
Post by: FV on September 04, 2008, 09:09:48 PM
Bones I've gotten around and have seen EXTREME poverty in a lot of places including the US.  I've never seen it in Canada.  Period.  We look after our own pretty good.
Title: Re: Non Citizens
Post by: RideauDreaming on September 05, 2008, 12:39:44 AM
If I visit canada and someone falsely accuses me of assault then i'd think I should be able to have a lawyer.

As for medical access etc, well I take out travel insurance so i wouldn't expect canadians to pay.
Title: Re: Non Citizens
Post by: rose on September 05, 2008, 01:03:35 AM
Bones I've gotten around and have seen EXTREME poverty in a lot of places including the US.  I've never seen it in Canada.  Period.  We look after our own pretty good.

 :icon_agree: and many people in Canada have complained about it for years.  Although I have noticed not as much complaining in the past few years.  Canada has a pretty broad social safety net compared to many countries.
Title: Re: Non Citizens
Post by: Broken Bones on September 05, 2008, 08:46:33 AM
Bones I've gotten around and have seen EXTREME poverty in a lot of places including the US.  I've never seen it in Canada.  Period.  We look after our own pretty good.

Obviously you have not looked all that hard, or walked around with your eyes closed. I am talking about families that live paycheque to paycheque, who have to get vouchers for second hand clothing, the money goes to nothing more than rent and food.  The houses they are living in are owned by slumlords who do everything they can in scaring their tenants to get as much out of them as possible, and then threatening legal action should they not adhere to the slumlords demands, they have no choice because they do not have the money to fight a legal battle, and are often denied legal aid as well.

It may not be apparent in cities like Ottawa, Toronto, Vancouver, where many of those who are poor are also homeless, but go out to the more rural towns where these families are struggling to live.

Rose, Canada does have a safety net, but unfortunately it is filled with holes. For one to get welfare they also give up any child benefit cheques they receive, leaving them in the same financial position they were prior to welfare.

Sure, give these people money to help them stay afloat, but where is the training and education to give them further opportunities to better themselves?

Unless you think living merely with a roof over your head is a "good standard of living".
Title: Re: Non Citizens
Post by: Broken Bones on September 05, 2008, 08:48:20 AM
If I visit canada and someone falsely accuses me of assault then i'd think I should be able to have a lawyer.

As for medical access etc, well I take out travel insurance so i wouldn't expect canadians to pay.

And you visiting our country is a perfect example as to why non citizens here in Canada should be given proper legal representation.  It does not take much to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Title: Re: Non Citizens
Post by: Jasonf6 on September 05, 2008, 09:05:52 AM
And you visiting our country is a perfect example as to why non citizens here in Canada should be given proper legal representation.  It does not take much to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I'm all for that kind of legal representation. 

But I think you misunderstood my point about welfare.  I never meant that welfare was the way to go for anyone.  What I meant was that for A LOT of people who come here from a country say like Afghanistan or Iraq living on welfare here beats what they had back there hands down. 
Title: Re: Non Citizens
Post by: Metalhawk on September 05, 2008, 01:22:49 PM
Obviously you have not looked all that hard, or walked around with your eyes closed. I am talking about families that live paycheque to paycheque, who have to get vouchers for second hand clothing, the money goes to nothing more than rent and food.  The houses they are living in are owned by slumlords who do everything they can in scaring their tenants to get as much out of them as possible, and then threatening legal action should they not adhere to the slumlords demands, they have no choice because they do not have the money to fight a legal battle, and are often denied legal aid as well.

It may not be apparent in cities like Ottawa, Toronto, Vancouver, where many of those who are poor are also homeless, but go out to the more rural towns where these families are struggling to live.

Rose, Canada does have a safety net, but unfortunately it is filled with holes. For one to get welfare they also give up any child benefit cheques they receive, leaving them in the same financial position they were prior to welfare.

Sure, give these people money to help them stay afloat, but where is the training and education to give them further opportunities to better themselves?

Unless you think living merely with a roof over your head is a "good standard of living".

I think what FV means is that even Canada's poor have it good compared to other places. Go to Haiti and compare, or to Chad, Sudan, etc. Even the middle class citizens of those countries have it worse than Canada's poor.
Title: Re: Non Citizens
Post by: Broken Bones on September 05, 2008, 02:18:14 PM
I won't disagree when looking at that, but don't go kidding yourself if you think Canada is doing everything possible to help these families.
Title: Re: Non Citizens
Post by: RideauDreaming on September 12, 2008, 01:48:03 AM
I'm all for that kind of legal representation. 

But I think you misunderstood my point about welfare.  I never meant that welfare was the way to go for anyone.  What I meant was that for A LOT of people who come here from a country say like Afghanistan or Iraq living on welfare here beats what they had back there hands down. 

It's a tough issue. They didn't get welfare back home, but then they didn't need to pay for housing or everything was cheap as well. If you allow refugees into your country then you have to support them until they gain qualifications. It's hard going as education is not cheap.

The only beef i have on this topic is people who are dual citizens, who spend years abroad and yet still claim benefits from canada event though they pay no taxes and contribute nothing to canada. I'd be all for cutting out their payments. And the same goes for refugees who commit awful crimes, they can get deported too.
Title: Re: Non Citizens
Post by: Dagwood on September 12, 2008, 12:50:59 PM
I won't disagree when looking at that, but don't go kidding yourself if you think Canada is doing everything possible to help these families.

Hmm...

I have always admired the Welfare recipients I've known and seen over the years with:

Cars
Satellite TV
Cell Phones
Internet

And then line up for those Clothing coupons and Food Bank donations.   Not all....but a significant portion of Welfare Folks.

In fact.....I have often felt I would be better off to quit my job and go on Welfare.  It would be far less stressfull than trying to ensure you make enough $$$$ to pay for everything....most of which is handed to Welfare recipients.

Nothing and NOTHING exemplifies this more than when my Brother-In-Laws wife decided to leave him.  Not for any apparent reason other than she just wanted to be on her own again.  Welfare stepped in.....Helped her secure a new apartment and then insisted.......that's INSISTED that they provide her with all brand new appliances and throw out the stuff that was already there.  Love my tax dollars at work  :duh

As for immigrants that come to Canada and then live on Welfare.... Sorry.....but I say don't let them in to start with.
If you are unable to support yourself, then don't bother coming.  instead.....Canada let's them in, furnishes them with apartments and everthing else....then several families move in together...alll collecting cheques....and before you know it..... they are further ahead than citizens born and raised here.
Title: Re: Non Citizens
Post by: Broken Bones on September 12, 2008, 01:21:42 PM
Would you apply that to the refugees too Dags?  If you don't have any skills don't bother coming?
Title: Re: Non Citizens
Post by: butterfly_style on September 12, 2008, 01:24:40 PM
Quote from: Dagwood
As for immigrants that come to Canada and then live on Welfare.... Sorry.....but I say don't let them in to start with.
True, we should them be persecuted in their own country.

Quote from: Dagwood
If you are unable to support yourself, then don't bother coming.  instead.....Canada let's them in, furnishes them with apartments and everthing else....then several families move in together...alll collecting cheques....and before you know it..... they are further ahead than citizens born and raised here.
Maybe we should recognise some of the credentials that these people posess.
I was in a cab the other day, and the driver had a PHD in engineering.
He worked a second job, cleaning office buildings at night to put food on the table. . . .And so he wouldn't have to accept Welfare.

Yeah, dont let this friggin' immigrant into our country

Title: Re: Non Citizens
Post by: rose on September 12, 2008, 01:36:55 PM
It may not be apparent in cities like Ottawa, Toronto, Vancouver, where many of those who are poor are also homeless, but go out to the more rural towns where these families are struggling to live.

Rose, Canada does have a safety net, but unfortunately it is filled with holes. For one to get welfare they also give up any child benefit cheques they receive, leaving them in the same financial position they were prior to welfare.

Sure, give these people money to help them stay afloat, but where is the training and education to give them further opportunities to better themselves?

Unless you think living merely with a roof over your head is a "good standard of living".

I think we are looking at this from different perspectives or, at least, definitions of "extreme" poverty.  I suppose to simplify from my point of view, extreme poverty in Canada is a lot different than extreme poverty in less-developed nations.
Title: Re: Non Citizens
Post by: Dagwood on September 20, 2008, 01:21:05 AM
Would you apply that to the refugees too Dags?  If you don't have any skills don't bother coming?

I think instead of spending billions of dollars supporting other countries and/or people coming to live here...
The gov't should take care of it's own backyard first.  My taxes keep going up and yet people born and raised here are ending up on the streets because they lack the skills or can't find jobs because the competition keeps coming from outside out boarders.  You want to live here....pay some $$$$ for the priviledge. This open door policy has to change.
Title: Re: Non Citizens
Post by: Broken Bones on September 20, 2008, 08:12:05 AM
I think instead of spending billions of dollars supporting other countries and/or people coming to live here...
The gov't should take care of it's own backyard first.  My taxes keep going up and yet people born and raised here are ending up on the streets because they lack the skills or can't find jobs because the competition keeps coming from outside out boarders.  You want to live here....pay some $$$$ for the priviledge. This open door policy has to change.

I do agree that Canadians need to be taken care of better as we pay taxes our entire lives here in Canada.  A refugee is not an easy thing, Canada is all about helping others, so it's difficult for me to say close the door completely, but maybe rather review the "qualifications" one needs in order to claim refugee status.  I mean hell, we have American soldiers who have come up to Canada to avoid going to combat who want such a status, when at most they will receive is a dishonorable discharge and a couple months, or at most a few years in prison.
Title: Re: Non Citizens
Post by: Jasonf6 on September 20, 2008, 10:50:06 AM
Would you apply that to the refugees too Dags?  If you don't have any skills don't bother coming?

Yes.  Look at what Australia and I think the Netherlands do.  If you don't have skills they are looking for, go elsewhere.  In the Netherlands they say you are coming to OUR country, if you don't like our culture and way of doing things then go elsewhere.  If you want to try and force your culture on us, then go elsewhere.  I wish we did that.  Tired of hearing Muslims cry about not having their own Sharia Law here.  Guess what.  YOU came HERE.  Live with it.  That's not to say I don't value other religions and whatnot, just don't try and force it on me.  Don't ask to change my way of life because something in your religion clashes with how I do things. 
Title: Re: Non Citizens
Post by: Metalhawk on September 20, 2008, 01:01:27 PM
Yes.  Look at what Australia and I think the Netherlands do.  If you don't have skills they are looking for, go elsewhere.  In the Netherlands they say you are coming to OUR country, if you don't like our culture and way of doing things then go elsewhere.  If you want to try and force your culture on us, then go elsewhere.  I wish we did that.  Tired of hearing Muslims cry about not having their own Sharia Law here.  Guess what.  YOU came HERE.  Live with it.  That's not to say I don't value other religions and whatnot, just don't try and force it on me.  Don't ask to change my way of life because something in your religion clashes with how I do things. 

 :icon_bowdown2: :icon_bowdown2: :icon_bowdown2: :icon_bowdown2: :icon_bowdown2:

Amen brother. AMEN!
Title: Re: Non Citizens
Post by: Docawesome on September 20, 2008, 03:11:40 PM
Yes.  Look at what Australia and I think the Netherlands do.  If you don't have skills they are looking for, go elsewhere.  In the Netherlands they say you are coming to OUR country, if you don't like our culture and way of doing things then go elsewhere.  If you want to try and force your culture on us, then go elsewhere.  I wish we did that.  Tired of hearing Muslims cry about not having their own Sharia Law here.  Guess what.  YOU came HERE.  Live with it.  That's not to say I don't value other religions and whatnot, just don't try and force it on me.  Don't ask to change my way of life because something in your religion clashes with how I do things. 

Whoa... who is trying to change your life?!!!?
I don't know anybody that wants Sharia Law here. Not family, not friends, not ANY Muslim I have come into contact with in this country over my 10.5 years living here. So stop the bullshit. No Muslim is knocking on your door every weekend or calling you while you're eating your dinner and asking you to voice your support for Sharia Law. You're tired of hearing Muslims talk about Sharia? Tell me where exactly is it --geographically speaking-- where you get into contact with a whole bunch of Muslims who are now apparently getting under your nerve about Sharia Law.

Also, this WAS your country before I came here. Its now YOUR country and MINE, that is what my passport seems to imply. I have as much right by law to do whatever I wish. So, I do whatever shit I feel like doing whenever I feel like doing it. And if I feel like protesting outside I'll do it too. I'm not forcing anything on you. I really don't care what you do or believe in, think... none of my business. Just like my life is in none of your business.

Its just me personally I do get annoyed reading online about people getting sick with Muslims wanting x and y. YOU don't know any Muslims! Stop painting the quiet majority with the same brush as the loud minority. 



Title: Re: Non Citizens
Post by: Metalhawk on September 20, 2008, 03:44:58 PM
Whoa... who is trying to change your life?!!!?
I don't know anybody that wants Sharia Law here. Not family, not friends, not ANY Muslim I have come into contact with in this country over my 10.5 years living here. So stop the bullshit. No Muslim is knocking on your door every weekend or calling you while you're eating your dinner and asking you to voice your support for Sharia Law. You're tired of hearing Muslims talk about Sharia? Tell me where exactly is it --geographically speaking-- where you get into contact with a whole bunch of Muslims who are now apparently getting under your nerve about Sharia Law.

Also, this WAS your country before I came here. Its now YOUR country and MINE, that is what my passport seems to imply. I have as much right by law to do whatever I wish. So, I do whatever shit I feel like doing whenever I feel like doing it. And if I feel like protesting outside I'll do it too. I'm not forcing anything on you. I really don't care what you do or believe in, think... none of my business. Just like my life is in none of your business.

Its just me personally I do get annoyed reading online about people getting sick with Muslims wanting x and y. YOU don't know any Muslims! Stop painting the quiet majority with the same brush as the loud minority. 

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2005/09/09/sharia-protests-20050909.html

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1126181967010_31/?hub=CTVNewsAt11

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1126472943217_26/?hub=TopStories


And want to talk about people expecting our culture to change? What about that vocal minority that has essentially forced retailers not to use the word Christmas anymore. That Happy Holidays & Seasons Greetings bullshit is now being force fed down our freakin' throats because of people of other religions who feel insulted when wished a Merry Christmas and raised enough of a stink about it.

Or what about the Jewish community right now who is unhappy because the upcoming elections fall on one of their holidays? Last time I checked, this was a normal Canadian business day, hence perfectly justifiable for an election. But for some reason, they expect our everyday life to cater to a foreign holiday.
Title: Re: Non Citizens
Post by: Docawesome on September 20, 2008, 04:15:03 PM
Same old Metal. Your knowledge of other cultures is lacking. So, whats left? Prejudice. No offense but you bring nothing in terms of content, same content as your posts in the mid east thread. Really, no offense. I like you but foreign policy/culture stuff you yourself told me you did not know much about and also you said you didn't like long drawn out posts (I'll find the quotes if you like).

I knew you had something against Muslims but Jews now too?

Title: Re: Non Citizens
Post by: rose on September 20, 2008, 04:23:46 PM
Canada is based on Christian-Judeo principles.  The current government calling an election on a Jewish holiday IS - and should be - insulting to Jewish people in this country.  Sorry...bad move there, IMHO.

I have no problem with other religions being here and I do think it is a slim minority of people who demand that we change our ways to accommodate theirs.  Really.  Political correctness runs amok because we let it, IMHO.  I say Merry Christmas whenever I feel like it and I have never ONCE had anyone complain to me or give me a dirty look, etc.  As far as stores, etc. caving into the pressure, I would love to hear where the so-called pressure came from.  If it is some special-interest groups and the retailers caved then those who want "Merry Christmas" back into the stores should put equal pressure for it to return.  If you are not willing to, then don't complain about the special interest groups....complain about the retailers.

I don't like discussions that paint broad strokes regarding, particularly, religion.  But you gotta KNOW that if the government had called the election for Thanksgiving Monday or the first day of Ramadan (sp?), there would have been LOTS of  noise.  As there should be.  Respect for religious holidays of all kinds should be observed.
Title: Re: Non Citizens
Post by: Docawesome on September 20, 2008, 04:53:15 PM
I fully agree.

And I say "Merry Christmas" to Christians at OttawaU or when I'm working. I say it because it feels good to say it. "Happy Holidays" is kind of lame. I don't feel offended at all when a Christian wishes me --a Muslim-- a "Merry Christmas". They don't know that I don't celebrate it. I love Jesus as much you love him but we don't celebrate birthdays, not even Mohammad's.
Title: Re: Non Citizens
Post by: Metalhawk on September 20, 2008, 05:06:02 PM
Same old Metal. Your knowledge of other cultures is lacking. So, whats left? Prejudice. No offense but you bring nothing in terms of content, same content as your posts in the mid east thread. Really, no offense. I like you but foreign policy/culture stuff you yourself told me you did not know much about and also you said you don't like long drawn out posts (I'll find the quotes if you like).

I knew you had something against Muslims but Jews now too?



And same old Doc who sees everything as racism. Wow, those generalizations are fun, aren't they?.  :shake:

But I would like you to explain to me where my "knowledge of other cultures is lacking". How does me not agreeing with the Jewish community who don't like that the CANADIAN elections are called on their FOREIGN holiday a lack of knowledge?

How is me not agreeing with retailers bending to a very small vocal minority who don't want to hear the word Christmas a lack of knowledge?

And now I have something against Muslims? Just because I don't want life in this country to be changed to accommodate the demands a minority (I don't care if it's Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, whatever) who immigrate here doesn't make me a racist, as you are implying (as usual).

Once you explain to me where my knowledge is lacking, then maybe I'll start taking your posts on the subject seriously. Until then, I see them as nothing but propaganda by someone who sees everyone who doesn't agree with his own views as intolerant.
Title: Re: Non Citizens
Post by: rose on September 20, 2008, 05:21:21 PM
Have to agree to disagree with you about the elections, Metal.  Expecting Canadian citizens of any religion to vote on their religious holiday(s) is not only intolerant but rude.  Unless, of course, you don't want people to vote for some reason.  Yes...there are advance polls and I am sure that ardent voters with democratic principles will get out their vote.  But in terms of the government, who set the date, it's just wrong, IMHO.  There are plenty of days in the year that do not fall on religious holidays to hold elections.  And that is not bending-over-backwards for religious people who came here from another land...it's just common courtesy.
Title: Re: Non Citizens
Post by: Budkiller on September 20, 2008, 05:36:02 PM
But I would like you to explain to me where my "knowledge of other cultures is lacking". How does me not agreeing with the Jewish community who don't like that the CANADIAN elections are called on their FOREIGN holiday a lack of knowledge?

For the record, Islam and Judaism (and their observances) are not "foreign."  To say that suggests that they are (or should be) celebrated in countries other than ours.  Both are practiced in dozens of nations and by tens of millions of people.  People should be free to responsibly practice whatever they want provided it doesn't break any [of Canada's] laws.

However, since we are on the topic, our government and its policy, law and (eep) scheduling should be entirely secular.
Title: Re: Non Citizens
Post by: rose on September 20, 2008, 05:47:38 PM
For the record, Islam and Judaism (and their observances) are not "foreign."  To say that suggests that they are (or should be) celebrated in countries other than ours.  Both are practiced in dozens of nations and by tens of millions of people.  People should be free to responsibly practice whatever they want provided it doesn't break any [of Canada's] laws.

However, since we are on the topic, our government and its policy, law and (eep) scheduling should be entirely secular.

I agree with you.  But I think that in a country that is known for being so "polite", it's not a stretch to respect other's religious holidays for something as inclusive as a federal election.  Particularly with low turn-outs often complained about after the election has taken place.
Title: Re: Non Citizens
Post by: Metalhawk on September 20, 2008, 05:52:37 PM
For the record, Islam and Judaism (and their observances) are not "foreign."  To say that suggests that they are (or should be) celebrated in countries other than ours.  Both are practiced in dozens of nations and by tens of millions of people.  People should be free to responsibly practice whatever they want provided it doesn't break any [of Canada's] laws.

However, since we are on the topic, our government and its policy, law and (eep) scheduling should be entirely secular.

You see, that's not the way I see it. To me (and again, the following doesn't make me a racist, regardless of what SOME people here think), the question is quite simple: is Sukkot recognized in Canada as an official holiday? Yes or no? No, therefore it's a foreign holiday. It doesn't mean Jewish citizens can't celebrate it in Canada, but should something like an election be called on that day, sorry to say, but too bad. Sure, the government could be considerate and not call it on that day, but it was. Ill thought, sure. Anything else, give me a break.
Title: Re: Non Citizens
Post by: Budkiller on September 20, 2008, 05:56:35 PM
I agree with you.  But I think that in a country that is known for being so "polite", it's not a stretch to respect other's religious holidays for something as inclusive as a federal election.  Particularly with low turn-outs often complained about after the election has taken place.

No, it's not a "stretch"...but where do you draw the line?  Which religious observances make the list?  Which don't?
Title: Re: Non Citizens
Post by: rose on September 20, 2008, 06:03:05 PM
No, it's not a "stretch"...but where do you draw the line?  Which religious observances make the list?  Which don't?

I understand your point but I doubt that there is a religious holiday being observed every day of the year.

With that said, had the present government just stuck with their "fixed" date, then I am guessing we would not be having this discussion. :icon_hiding2:
Title: Re: Non Citizens
Post by: Budkiller on September 20, 2008, 06:06:09 PM
You see, that's not the way I see it. To me (and again, the following doesn't make me a racist, regardless of what SOME people here think), the question is quite simple: is Sukkot recognized in Canada as an official holiday? Yes or no? No, therefore it's a foreign holiday. It doesn't mean Jewish citizens can't celebrate it in Canada, but should something like an election be called on that day, sorry to say, but too bad. Sure, the government could be considerate and not call it on that day, but it was. Ill thought, sure. Anything else, give me a break.

Metal - I don't think anyone's implying that you're "racist," but there is a tone of intolerance in the way you dismiss other religions.  Although I agree that they have no place in the way Canada is governed, it is irresponsible for us to favour one religion (and its observances) over others... as they relate to "official holidays."
Title: Re: Non Citizens
Post by: Metalhawk on September 20, 2008, 06:26:59 PM
Metal - I don't think anyone's implying that you're "racist,"

Re-read Doc's post. And I've heard that from him before too. He actually believes I'm racist.


Quote
but there is a tone of intolerance in the way you dismiss other religions.

It's not intolerance, really. Simply a small belief of "religious seclusion". I don't expect the Iraqi or Saudi, or Japanese, or Israeli, etc government to respect Christian holidays when they make decisions about running their countries, the same as I don't think the Canadian government should take decisions based on non-official religions in this country.

Unfortunately, some people see that as racism, which couldn't be further from the truth. I get along great with people of at least 3 other religions just on top of my head as well as of at least 5 different ethnicities, again, that's just on top of my head.
Title: Re: Non Citizens
Post by: Budkiller on September 20, 2008, 07:54:14 PM
Re-read Doc's post. And I've heard that from him before too. He actually believes I'm racist.

I don't know.  "Racist" is a reeeaally strong word and I'm not sure Doc has gone so far as to label you like that..
Title: Re: Non Citizens
Post by: Metalhawk on September 20, 2008, 10:20:33 PM
I don't know.  "Racist" is a reeeaally strong word and I'm not sure Doc has gone so far as to label you like that..


"Having something against Muslims and Jews" sounds pretty accusatory to me.

At the end of the day though, I don't put too much weight in what Doc says on this subject. He believes he's the God of foreign policies knowledge, or whatever, when ultimately he's just opinionated from a Palestinian point of view. No more or less knowledgeable than the average Joe.
Title: Re: Non Citizens
Post by: Metalhawk on September 20, 2008, 10:25:30 PM
And while on the subject

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2008/09/20/prayer-dispute.html

Muslims workers want different breaks in order to be able to pray at the right time during Ramadan. Again, while it would be nice for the supervisors to allow it, there is no legal requirements in the States (just like in Canada) to do so.
Title: Re: Non Citizens
Post by: FV on September 20, 2008, 10:55:35 PM
As a manager I've always tried to accommodate employee's religious beliefs.  I even found a room for some Muslim staff to go pray in.

I don't like this topic and it's made me somewhat uncomfortable but I have to say my piece.  I'm not calling anyone racist but I'm reading some comments that I think are really close minded.

There are people in this country that are Muslim or whatever and as long as they are Canadians they have the same rights as you or I.  The "Merry Christmas" debate is dumb.  No one should feel uncomfortable saying it and I've never been made to feel that way.  And just as Christian Canadians should be able to celebrate their religious holidays, so should people of other faiths.

I'm actually a Unitarian Universalist so we celebrate and appreciate all religious holidays though unfortunately my work won't let me take all those days off.   :laugh2:
Title: Re: Non Citizens
Post by: Jasonf6 on September 20, 2008, 11:04:02 PM
I don't know anybody that wants Sharia Law here. Not family, not friends, not ANY Muslim I have come into contact with in this country over my 10.5 years living here. So stop the bullshit. No Muslim is knocking on your door every weekend or calling you while you're eating your dinner and asking you to voice your support for Sharia Law.

I don't know what rock you have been living under but it was brought up not too long ago in Ontario (Toronto area I believe) about Sharia Law so how about YOU stop the bullshit.

Quote
Its just me personally I do get annoyed reading online about people getting sick with Muslims wanting x and y. YOU don't know any Muslims! Stop painting the quiet majority with the same brush as the loud minority. 

How in the hell do you know who I do and don't know?  I actually do know some muslims.  Hell, I spent a great amount of time in the military and a few of my friends were muslims.  Quiet majorty?  You really think Canadians everywhere are alright with the horde of immigrants coming here and taking advantage of our freedoms all the while talking smack about how they hate it.  If they hate it so much, LEAVE.  And before you go off about how I don't know shit, I watched a show Immigration and how they round up people with warrants and shit.  On that very show was an immigrant who said plainly on camera how she hates this country, yet there she was living it up WAY better than she would in her home country. 

Newsflash for ya, Canadians aren't as cosey as you may think in terms of immigration.  Nobody will say anything for fear of offending the immigrants who DO contribute and actually do like it here. 
Title: Re: Non Citizens
Post by: Jasonf6 on September 20, 2008, 11:11:30 PM
And while on the subject

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2008/09/20/prayer-dispute.html

Muslims workers want different breaks in order to be able to pray at the right time during Ramadan. Again, while it would be nice for the supervisors to allow it, there is no legal requirements in the States (just like in Canada) to do so.

Man, if you were to give every employee of a large organization like that their own "religiously themed" break during the day you'd be lucky to have more than 5 people at one time actually working.  Don't get the breaks you want on the job?  Quit.  You signed a contract knowing full well the number of breaks and their duration before you started working.  Don't like that?  Look up the regulations that are available online for every level of government.  Still don't like that?  Too bad. 

Just off the top of my head I think if you work say 9 - 5 you are supposed to get two 15-min paid breaks and one 1-hr lunch that isn't paid.  Of course, shift workers are different as well as other non-typical time slot workers. 

Different area, same situation.  Do you think it fair that smokers get smoke breaks while non-smokers get to keep working?
Title: Re: Non Citizens
Post by: Docawesome on September 21, 2008, 12:40:27 AM
"Having something against Muslims and Jews" sounds pretty accusatory to me.

At the end of the day though, I don't put too much weight in what Doc says on this subject. He believes he's the God of foreign policies knowledge, or whatever, when ultimately he's just opinionated from a Palestinian point of view. No more or less knowledgeable than the average Joe.

What does myself being of Palestinian ancestry have to do with the topic at hand?



Title: Re: Non Citizens
Post by: FV on September 21, 2008, 12:54:39 AM
What does myself being of Palestinian ancestry have to do with the topic at hand?

Why are you bothering with this?

Reminds me of the conversation I had with two older broads at the Legion a couple of weeks back.  They tried to convince me that Sikhs couldn't wear turbans in the Legion.  I told them if that was true I would quit immediately.  Turns out they were wrong and just a pair of racists.
Title: Re: Non Citizens
Post by: Docawesome on September 21, 2008, 12:57:48 AM
As a manager I've always tried to accommodate employee's religious beliefs.  I even found a room for some Muslim staff to go pray in.

And you didn't really have to do that. Ask a Muslim, they will say they believe of real reward for such treatment. Hearing stories like this really warms my heart. I, would like to give you sir a very big hug. Hearing stories of individuals going the extra mile for the sake of tolerance is really something special.



Title: Re: Non Citizens
Post by: Metalhawk on September 21, 2008, 01:00:06 AM
What does myself being of Palestinian ancestry have to do with the topic at hand?

Just look back at the Mid-East thread. You have your views on what the issues are, while people from here who don't see/hear the same reports see things in a different way.

Similar to how some opinionated Leafs fans see the Alfredsson stick incident as a mockery, an insult while Sens fans see it from another point of view as a light-hearted joke made at the expanse of Sundin, a very a good friend of his.
Title: Re: Non Citizens
Post by: FV on September 21, 2008, 01:10:44 AM
And you didn't really have to do that. Ask a Muslim, they will say they believe of real reward for such treatment. Hearing stories like this really warms my heart. I, would like to give you sir a very big hug. Hearing stories of individuals going the extra mile for the sake of tolerance is really something special.

Well, thank you but I am also going to disappoint you unfortunately.  Part of the reason that I did that was because we had a lot of clients visiting our offices and we had some Muslin staff members coming out of their cubicles for prayer and my motivation was actually two-fold.  I wanted to give them privacy but I also wanted to get them out of the hallways.  I have no issue with it personally but we are still a business and I thought finding these colleagues somewhere to go was more appropriate.  And seriously, I don't mean I was trying to hide anyone., because I wasn't.

Also, I really dislike the usage we tend to use of the word "tolerance".  Nobody needs to be just "tolerated"!  That sounds like we're just putting up with people.  It shouldn't be like that.  Just accept and live and let live.
Title: Re: Non Citizens
Post by: Metalhawk on September 21, 2008, 01:15:45 AM
And you didn't really have to do that. Ask a Muslim, they will say they believe of real reward for such treatment. Hearing stories like this really warms my heart. I, would like to give you sir a very big hug. Hearing stories of individuals going the extra mile for the sake of tolerance is really something special.

In that case, where's my hug? On many occasions at work, I give access to a closed room to one of my above-mentioned Muslim friend so he can pray in peace.  :P

Look Doc, at the end of the day, I like you a lot too, but we really don't see eye to eye on a few issues, mostly foreign/religious issues. It doesn't make me a racist (or intolerant) person as you've been hinting, or even ignorant (trust me, I do my fair share of reading on that subject, among many others), it simply makes me of a different opinion than you about what should/could/should not be done, and unfortunately, that's one of the subjects that tends to bring out the worst out of people, as evidenced already in this thread.

Now, can't we all just look for boats?  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Non Citizens
Post by: Docawesome on September 21, 2008, 01:53:06 AM
Quiet majorty?  You really think Canadians everywhere are alright with the horde of immigrants coming here and taking advantage of our freedoms all the while talking smack about how they hate it.  

Care to elaborate how this 'horde of immigrants' takes advantage of your freedoms?

Quote
And before you go off about how I don't know shit, I watched a show

You watched a show, you say. Well then, I do apologize.

 
 
Quote
On that very show was an immigrant who said plainly on camera how she hates this country, yet there she was living it up WAY better than she would in her home country.

Rounding up a sample from the population of any country will return a bunch of responses in line with: "I hate this country". It does not mean they actually hate that country, and it doesn't mean they are against what that country stands for. It more than likely just means that they are frustrated about the state they are in. Frustration can come from issues ranging from family, work, financial issues, etc... Anybody can get frustrated to the point of saying things they likely don't mean, things like: "I hate this country", "I hate my proff", "I hate Lalime". An immigrant in a new environment is likely starting from scratch. It is therefore easy to get frustrated and easier to vent frustration by saying "I hate it here". But that does NOT mean they hate their new country. I came here 10 years ago and I hated it. I was only 15 and I was removed from the country I grew up in. I lost all my friends. I hated Canada. But I would have hated just about any other country I moved to. What initially made a difference and made me feel better and more welcome is the staff & peers at York Memorial High school in North York. And I love Canada now. I would not want to go back to live in Jordan even though I love it there too because my life is here.

That said, I have to ask you to suppose for any number of reasons circumstances lead you to move to say Jordan, permanently. How would you feel your first month there?

Is it that difficult for people to put themselves in other people's shoes and try and understand? Its easier in the armchair, isn't it?


Quote
Newsflash for ya, Canadians aren't as cosey as you may think in terms of immigration.

I believe that citizens of this multicultural nation exhibit some of the most tolerant and 'polite', as Rose nicely put it, attitudes of any other nation. And that is why I stand proud to call myself Canadian.


Quote
Nobody will say anything for fear of offending the immigrants who DO contribute and actually do like it here.  

Some people don't contribute until they get back on their feet. Moving to a new country like I said is not easy. There are however, some who do take advantage of the system. Some who stay on welfare for as long as possible. But I really think that this issue is not widespread and is just amplified and over-hyped by some. Still wrong nonetheless.
Title: Re: Non Citizens
Post by: Docawesome on September 21, 2008, 02:15:49 AM
Well, thank you but I am also going to disappoint you unfortunately.  Part of the reason that I did that was because we had a lot of clients visiting our offices and we had some Muslin staff members coming out of their cubicles for prayer and my motivation was actually two-fold.  I wanted to give them privacy but I also wanted to get them out of the hallways.  I have no issue with it personally but we are still a business and I thought finding these colleagues somewhere to go was more appropriate.  

I study business at OttawaU and I would do the same thing.


Quote
And seriously, I don't mean I was trying to hide anyone., because I wasn't.

lol
I know.

Although, I would probably want to hide them. Because we don't talk during prayer and the prayer looks odd to those unfamiliar with it. And most are shy about praying in public anyway.

Quote
Also, I really dislike the usage we tend to use of the word "tolerance".  Nobody needs to be just "tolerated"!  That sounds like we're just putting up with people.  It shouldn't be like that.  Just accept and live and let live.

I agree. Religious debate always makes me uncomfortable.
Title: Re: Non Citizens
Post by: Docawesome on September 21, 2008, 02:42:27 AM
In that case, where's my hug? On many occasions at work, I give access to a closed room to one of my above-mentioned Muslim friend so he can pray in peace.  :P

Look Doc, at the end of the day, I like you a lot too, but we really don't see eye to eye on a few issues, mostly foreign/religious issues. It doesn't make me a racist (or intolerant) person as you've been hinting, or even ignorant (trust me, I do my fair share of reading on that subject, among many others), it simply makes me of a different opinion than you about what should/could/should not be done, and unfortunately, that's one of the subjects that tends to bring out the worst out of people, as evidenced already in this thread.

Its just internet debate. I hold nothing against you. Religious/political debate is like a hockey fight. Everything is forgotten afterwards.

Quote
Now, can't we all just look for boats?  :mrgreen:

And where exactly do you plan on going? The lakes are frozen in a couple months.
Title: Re: Non Citizens
Post by: Metalhawk on September 21, 2008, 02:45:58 AM
Its just internet debate. I hold nothing against you. Religious/political debate is like a hockey fight. Everything is forgotten afterwards.

And where exactly do you plan on going? The lakes are frozen in a couple months.

We'll have to trust our friends from the other side of the Equator to hook us up, I suppose. That, or a road trip to California. Sounds good just about now...  :woohoo
Title: Re: Non Citizens
Post by: Docawesome on September 21, 2008, 02:56:09 AM
We'll have to trust our friends from the other side of the Equator to hook us up, I suppose.

You mean with warm tropical air? Not gonna happen. If you thought last winter was bad, this one's going to be a 'Blockbuster' winter:
La Nina Domino Effect (http://www.accuweather.com/mt-news-blogs.asp?partner=accuweather&blog=Meteomadness&pgurl=/mtweb/content/Meteomadness/archives/2008/08/the_strong_la_nina_domino_effect.asp)

There could be palm trees growing in the arctic and we'll still get burried in snow come january.

Quote
That, or a road trip to California. Sounds good just about now...  :woohoo

ya I'd get on the phone with my travel agent, if I were you.
Title: Re: Non Citizens
Post by: Special J on September 28, 2008, 01:00:48 AM
I don't like this topic and it's made me somewhat uncomfortable but I have to say my piece.  I'm not calling anyone racist but I'm reading some comments that I think are really close minded.

I think I'm glad I bailed on this thread when I did.
Title: Re: Non Citizens
Post by: Sugar J.Hyde on September 29, 2008, 02:53:58 PM
Who cares if they're citizens or non-citizens, if they need help they should get it.
Title: Re: Non Citizens
Post by: RideauDreaming on October 28, 2008, 08:53:46 PM
Yes.  Look at what Australia and I think the Netherlands do.  If you don't have skills they are looking for, go elsewhere.  In the Netherlands they say you are coming to OUR country, if you don't like our culture and way of doing things then go elsewhere.  If you want to try and force your culture on us, then go elsewhere.  I wish we did that.  Tired of hearing Muslims cry about not having their own Sharia Law here.  Guess what.  YOU came HERE.  Live with it.  That's not to say I don't value other religions and whatnot, just don't try and force it on me.  Don't ask to change my way of life because something in your religion clashes with how I do things. 

Australia has various classes of immigration. Genuine refugees do not need to have skills, but the "skilled migrant" class does.

Sharia law really can't operate in line with the western legal tradition. That's why it can't be accepted. It's the same for indigenous customary law, it can only operate in small matters and even still it goes against the western concept of "equality before the law". The same goes for certain customs for some muslim immigrants which cannot be accepted (violence against women, cousins marrying etc).

I believe in helping people too but tolerance must go both ways.