Author Topic: Bryan Murray's Shopping List  (Read 106297 times)

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Offline winterfan

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Re: Bryan Murray's Shopping List
« Reply #540 on: August 07, 2008, 10:54:57 AM »
Clouder
One if not both barker and seabrook will be moved.The hawks are 4,5 over the cap and they want some flex room.I have heard they would like to be at about $48 million when camp opens.

Offline cloud9er

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Re: Bryan Murray's Shopping List
« Reply #541 on: August 07, 2008, 01:38:21 PM »
Homie don't play that game. If you watched 82 regular season games and 4 playoff games and didn't see it, pointing out a couple of examples isn't going to help you any.

Actually, it would help me out quite a bit.  I've seen former Senators play without accountability (Bonk) or competitiveness (Yashin), and Spezza doesn't strike me as comparable to either of those guys.  And it can't be his interviews, can it?  I've never once heard him try to pass the buck on to anyone when things are going bad, and I don't think I've ever heard him bragging about his successes either.  I've provided lots of examples as to why I feel that he's a good player for the Senators, so if someone disagrees, they should at least be able to back it up with something better than trying to claim I can't see the downside to his game.  The downside is there, but the upside is monolithic by comparison.

As for the Olympics, he wasn't actually left off the team, he was an alternate (along with Eric Staal I might add) as a 22-year old for a team that had Thornton, Sakic, Richards, and Lecavalier as centremen.  I fail to see the shame in being thought of as the 5th best centreman from Canada as a 22-year old.  He didn't have a good world championship, ok sure.  But in my opinion, using international tournaments as a measuring stick for how good or bad a guy might be is not all that valid.  The fact that you even get considered for one of these teams clearly means that you aren't a liability.

Clouder
One if not both barker and seabrook will be moved.The hawks are 4,5 over the cap and they want some flex room.I have heard they would like to be at about $48 million when camp opens.

Actually, they are 2.5 over the cap, and I think they would probably move guys like Lang or Sopel before they moved either of these guys.  Seabrook and Barker were both high first-round picks, and typically a team won't give up on a high first rounder before he's had a chance to succeed.  Sorry big guy, but Chicago has lots of other salaries that they can move.  And for the record, I was saying that if either of them do move, it's going to take an awful lot more than Neil and a draft pick.

Offline rose

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Re: Bryan Murray's Shopping List
« Reply #542 on: August 07, 2008, 02:01:37 PM »
^^ I am on the same wavelength as cloud9er on all counts, especially the Spezza comments.

My husband cannot stand Spezza and constantly complains about his style of play, his "goofy" manner and his giveaways.  Which is fine if he cannot stand those things, but what is infuriating is when Spezza does do something "right" (I believe it was a game against Detroit a couple of years back where Emery stood on his head and Spezza either got both goals in a 2-1 win for the Sens or he figured in on both of them) and then he says something like "he was lucky".  Criticize all you want, but give credit where credit is due.

I get frustrated at times with Spezza too but I like his stats overall for a relatively young player in the League.  Sure, he has to step it up more as he goes along and I, too, will be irritated as the next fan if his game deteriorates rather than improves but I still believe in his potential to be a top-5 centre in this League.   :nod:
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Offline SCRAMBLLLLLLE...

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Re: Bryan Murray's Shopping List
« Reply #543 on: August 07, 2008, 03:12:52 PM »
If you will remember, he was left off the olympic team.

So was Crosby.

Your argument is stronger if you use the past WC and not the Olympics where it was clear they tried to rely too much on the 2002 veterans.

Offline work2play

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Re: Bryan Murray's Shopping List
« Reply #544 on: August 07, 2008, 03:14:36 PM »
he's a good player for the Senators

This is true, and those that go on about how *Spezza sucks* just don't know much about talent when it comes to hockey.  But here's the thing, good isn't what people expect from Spezza, we expect great (especially at the salary he is getting under his new contract).  

Much as guys like Gretzky, Lemieux, and Yzerman had tons of skill when they were young, they still had to learn many things and improve the weaker parts of their game before they became champions and truly great players.  That's what we all want to see from Jason Spezza, and with a  little patience on our part, some good coaching, and more hard work on his part - then hopefully we will see him mature into a truly great player and a Staley Cup champion.  

Here's to getting to see him hoist the Cup over his head while still wearing a Senators jersey  :beer toast:
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Offline winterfan

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Re: Bryan Murray's Shopping List
« Reply #545 on: August 07, 2008, 04:38:25 PM »
Clouder
Chicago right now is at 59.5 million.

Offline cloud9er

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Re: Bryan Murray's Shopping List
« Reply #546 on: August 07, 2008, 07:45:59 PM »
Clouder
Chicago right now is at 59.5 million.

League salary cap = 56.7 million
Chicago Blackhawks payroll = anywhere from 57.1 million to 59.2 million, depending on where you get your info.
Total cap overage = somewhere between 400k and 2.5 million.

As long as I have the right info on what the cap hit is, it appears that this is the accurate information.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2008, 07:52:07 PM by cloud9er »

Offline vegas_shark

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Re: Bryan Murray's Shopping List
« Reply #547 on: August 07, 2008, 09:31:18 PM »
I get frustrated at times with Spezza too but I like his stats overall for a relatively young player in the League.  Sure, he has to step it up more as he goes along and I, too, will be irritated as the next fan if his game deteriorates rather than improves but I still believe in his potential to be a top-5 centre in this League.   :nod:

There is a guy named Alan Ryder who already has Spezza ranked as the #5 centre in the league based on an in depth statistical analysis of the 2008 season. Ryder's work is very interesting and revealing in the way he applies way more than just shots, goals, assists and plus/minus stats to rank players.

His reports are pretty technical but still worth a quick read, especially if you're planning a fantasy team for this season.
http://hockeyanalytics.com/Research_files/2008_NHL_Review.pdf

Offline thirstymoose_2000

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Re: Bryan Murray's Shopping List
« Reply #548 on: August 07, 2008, 09:43:05 PM »
This is true, and those that go on about how *Spezza sucks* just don't know much about talent when it comes to hockey.  But here's the thing, good isn't what people expect from Spezza, we expect great (especially at the salary he is getting under his new contract).    
:shake:

Nobody has said Spezza "sucks". Maybe those who can't see his downside "just don't know much about talent when it comes to hockey".

This is getting monotanous.
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Offline thirstymoose_2000

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Re: Bryan Murray's Shopping List
« Reply #549 on: August 07, 2008, 09:45:58 PM »
Actually, it would help me out quite a bit. 
Do your friends do your homework for you to?
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Offline cloud9er

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Re: Bryan Murray's Shopping List
« Reply #550 on: August 08, 2008, 10:00:05 AM »
Do your friends do your homework for you to?

 :shake:
Nice comment.  Sarcasm not appreciated.  Also, use of the word "to" in the context you're using it in requires an additional 'o' at the end.  As in, "Do your friends do your homework for you too?"  So there's a bit of grammar homework for you, on the house.

I've now asked twice for examples of Spezza's lack of accountability and commitment.  Your response was first to dismiss my request, as my lack of vision and hockey knowledge clearly leaves me incapable of seeing this part of Jason Spezza's game, and that there is no example that you could provide me with to show it more clearly than the sum of his professional career.  Your second response was to state that I should do the research on my own.

To the best of my knowledge I've done that research.  I've probably watched somewhere around 80%-85% of the games that he's been a Senator, I've done my homework on his numbers, I've watched him do interviews.  I've done everything short of going through his garbage and dating his ex-girlfriends.  I see the defensive lapses.  I see the blind passes that often result in turnovers.  I see the unwillingness to deliver a crushing bodycheck in the corners.  These are all "downsides" to his game, which despite my obviously stunted hockey knowledge, I've managed to pick out.  Here's the kicker though: despite these negative parts of his game, his upside still outweighs all of it by leaps and bounds. 

What I'm asking you to provide me with are examples of the problems that you're offering up as reasons why you don't want Jason Spezza playing for the Senators.  You have said that he's not accountable, that he's not committed, and that the effort he makes is not good enough.  If you're unwilling to provide that information, that's fine, you don't have to do my homework for me.  I'm going to assume that you won't provide these examples because you don't have any to provide.

You are right on one count though, this is getting monotonous.  We don't have to argue about Jason Spezza.  If he actually starts doing what you claim he's been doing for years, I'll come out and say that I was wrong.  How about we just leave it at that.

Offline thirstymoose_2000

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Re: Bryan Murray's Shopping List
« Reply #551 on: August 08, 2008, 09:33:58 PM »
I've now asked twice for examples of Spezza's lack of accountability and commitment. 
See here's the problem, I am not accountable to you. That is the point I was making with my sarcasm.  :A_laughing_matter:

Dude, if you haven't been able to see it on your own, you won't because someone points out that in game 56 at 3:34 in the second period Spezza missed an assignment. Sorry, toO much work to prove a point I am sick of arguing about. Sorry, but an anonymous poster on a message board isn't worth the effort as I've got better things to do.  Let's leave it at that.
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Offline OS

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Re: Bryan Murray's Shopping List
« Reply #552 on: August 08, 2008, 09:40:26 PM »
Quote
I've seen former Senators play without accountability (Bonk) or competitiveness (Yashin), and Spezza doesn't strike me as comparable to either of those guys.

That's a fair comment.  My problem is that Spezza, often when trying really, really hard, isn't able to connect his brain to his hockey stick.  He goes for individual efforts, or reverts to the junior moves, that doom his efforts to failure.  Brilliant physical talent, his challenge is to bring his playing smarts up to that level.

Offline Woody

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Re: Bryan Murray's Shopping List
« Reply #553 on: August 09, 2008, 04:24:55 PM »
Remember what Hitchcock said folks...

"This is a kid dying to be coached"

You could do it Hartsburg!!!!

Offline moxie

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Re: Bryan Murray's Shopping List
« Reply #554 on: August 09, 2008, 04:51:55 PM »
Yeah only because he's so used to coaching guys who act like 17 year olds.  ;)
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Offline thirstymoose_2000

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Re: Bryan Murray's Shopping List
« Reply #555 on: August 09, 2008, 05:35:23 PM »
Remember what Hitchcock said folks...

"This is a kid dying to be coached"

You could do it Hartsburg!!!!

No, he said he is now ready to be coached, meaning that he was not willing previously.

May seem like semantics, but there are completely different implications. It also supports the fact that Spezza wasn't likely listening to Paddock.

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Offline PuckFancy

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Re: Bryan Murray's Shopping List
« Reply #556 on: August 09, 2008, 11:52:52 PM »
Imagine though, if Spezza is this good while "un-coached", how better can he get once a good coach guides him properly?

Offline OS

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Re: Bryan Murray's Shopping List
« Reply #557 on: August 10, 2008, 12:54:34 AM »
Imagine though, if Spezza is this good while "un-coached", how better can he get once a good coach guides him properly?

Are you suggesting he hasn't had plenty of good coaches over the years?  Until the horse is ready to drink, all you can do is keep bringing him to the trough.   Hopefully Spezza is ready to raise his mental game to match his talents. 

Offline Woody

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Re: Bryan Murray's Shopping List
« Reply #558 on: August 10, 2008, 08:34:15 AM »
No, he said he is now ready to be coached, meaning that he was not willing previously.

May seem like semantics, but there are completely different implications. It also supports the fact that Spezza wasn't likely listening to Paddock.



For the record....This is what was actually said dude....He used the word "Wants" and not really "ready"....to your point it's just semantics but I just wanted it to be known.

"I think Jason Spezza has reached the stage of his career where he really wants to be coached. To this point I think he's done it mostly on talent. But I think he now realizes he needs more than that natural talent to go to another level.

"I can see here that he wants to be coached. He wants information. I think he's come to the realization that he needs coaching help to get better."

Ken Hitchcock

Offline thirstymoose_2000

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Re: Bryan Murray's Shopping List
« Reply #559 on: August 10, 2008, 10:25:56 AM »
For the record....This is what was actually said dude....He used the word "Wants" and not really "ready"....to your point it's just semantics but I just wanted it to be known.

"I think Jason Spezza has reached the stage of his career where he really wants to be coached. To this point I think he's done it mostly on talent. But I think he now realizes he needs more than that natural talent to go to another level.

"I can see here that he wants to be coached. He wants information. I think he's come to the realization that he needs coaching help to get better."

Ken Hitchcock
Has the same implications as I suggested. That he didn't listen to coaches before.

Quote
Imagine though, if Spezza is this good while "un-coached", how better can he get once a good coach guides him properly?
It's not a matter of being coached or not being coached. It is about what is or isn't between the kid's ears. His attitude is the problem, not his skill.
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