Poll

Should it be up to canada to protect them

Yes
2 (22.2%)
No
7 (77.8%)

Total Members Voted: 8

Author Topic: Non Citizens  (Read 23072 times)

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Offline Broken Bones

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Re: Non Citizens
« Reply #20 on: September 04, 2008, 04:51:57 PM »
Oh for sure, but it doesn't take a genius to realize that after the length of the sting, the cops have enough to prove them guilty.  And it's not like they are the first Vietnamese led grow-op we've seen. 

However, once they are proven guilty, ship them back.

You say that, but you do also realize that it is also easy for police officers to compile evidence against innocent people to get a guilty conviction, or scare them into pleading guilty?

I am not sure where I stand once they are found guilty, because frankly be deporting them you are letting them walk for their crimes, who is to say they simply will not return to Canada?

Offline Jasonf6

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Re: Non Citizens
« Reply #21 on: September 04, 2008, 06:04:15 PM »
You say that, but you do also realize that it is also easy for police officers to compile evidence against innocent people to get a guilty conviction, or scare them into pleading guilty?

I am not sure where I stand once they are found guilty, because frankly be deporting them you are letting them walk for their crimes, who is to say they simply will not return to Canada?

True enough that police can compile evidence but I just hope they don't do that.

As for returning to Canada, don't they get flagged in Immigration so that they can't return under any circumstances?  And as for letting them walk, do you think their life back in Vietnam could compare to what they had here in any way?  For A LOT of people even living on welfare here is WAY better than back in their home country working their asses off. 


Offline Broken Bones

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Re: Non Citizens
« Reply #22 on: September 04, 2008, 08:42:46 PM »
True enough that police can compile evidence but I just hope they don't do that.

As for returning to Canada, don't they get flagged in Immigration so that they can't return under any circumstances?  And as for letting them walk, do you think their life back in Vietnam could compare to what they had here in any way?  For A LOT of people even living on welfare here is WAY better than back in their home country working their asses off. 



I would not go that far, have you ever seen the life of one who is on welfare? Canada does sweet **** all when it comes to helping out those below the poverty line.

And you say you hope police wouldn't compile evidence against an innocent person, studying law, it has happened too many times for me to simply hope it doesn't happen.

Offline FV

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Re: Non Citizens
« Reply #23 on: September 04, 2008, 08:49:55 PM »
I would not go that far, have you ever seen the life of one who is on welfare? Canada does sweet **** all when it comes to helping out those below the poverty line.

I agree with Jason (did I just say that???  :laugh2:).  I think Canadians on welfare have a higher standard of living than most people on this PLANET!!!  I'm not exaggerating either.
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Offline Broken Bones

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Re: Non Citizens
« Reply #24 on: September 04, 2008, 09:04:49 PM »
I agree with Jason (did I just say that???  :laugh2:).  I think Canadians on welfare have a higher standard of living than most people on this PLANET!!!  I'm not exaggerating either.

I wouldn't say most.  Just how much research, how much detail do you know about Canadians on welfare besides them receiving government cheques?  These people are lucky to have a roof over their heads, but be damned looking at some of the places they live in is scary in itself.

Offline FV

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Re: Non Citizens
« Reply #25 on: September 04, 2008, 09:09:48 PM »
Bones I've gotten around and have seen EXTREME poverty in a lot of places including the US.  I've never seen it in Canada.  Period.  We look after our own pretty good.
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Offline RideauDreaming

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Re: Non Citizens
« Reply #26 on: September 05, 2008, 12:39:44 AM »
If I visit canada and someone falsely accuses me of assault then i'd think I should be able to have a lawyer.

As for medical access etc, well I take out travel insurance so i wouldn't expect canadians to pay.
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Offline rose

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Re: Non Citizens
« Reply #27 on: September 05, 2008, 01:03:35 AM »
Bones I've gotten around and have seen EXTREME poverty in a lot of places including the US.  I've never seen it in Canada.  Period.  We look after our own pretty good.

 :icon_agree: and many people in Canada have complained about it for years.  Although I have noticed not as much complaining in the past few years.  Canada has a pretty broad social safety net compared to many countries.
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Offline Broken Bones

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Re: Non Citizens
« Reply #28 on: September 05, 2008, 08:46:33 AM »
Bones I've gotten around and have seen EXTREME poverty in a lot of places including the US.  I've never seen it in Canada.  Period.  We look after our own pretty good.

Obviously you have not looked all that hard, or walked around with your eyes closed. I am talking about families that live paycheque to paycheque, who have to get vouchers for second hand clothing, the money goes to nothing more than rent and food.  The houses they are living in are owned by slumlords who do everything they can in scaring their tenants to get as much out of them as possible, and then threatening legal action should they not adhere to the slumlords demands, they have no choice because they do not have the money to fight a legal battle, and are often denied legal aid as well.

It may not be apparent in cities like Ottawa, Toronto, Vancouver, where many of those who are poor are also homeless, but go out to the more rural towns where these families are struggling to live.

Rose, Canada does have a safety net, but unfortunately it is filled with holes. For one to get welfare they also give up any child benefit cheques they receive, leaving them in the same financial position they were prior to welfare.

Sure, give these people money to help them stay afloat, but where is the training and education to give them further opportunities to better themselves?

Unless you think living merely with a roof over your head is a "good standard of living".

Offline Broken Bones

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Re: Non Citizens
« Reply #29 on: September 05, 2008, 08:48:20 AM »
If I visit canada and someone falsely accuses me of assault then i'd think I should be able to have a lawyer.

As for medical access etc, well I take out travel insurance so i wouldn't expect canadians to pay.

And you visiting our country is a perfect example as to why non citizens here in Canada should be given proper legal representation.  It does not take much to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Offline Jasonf6

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Re: Non Citizens
« Reply #30 on: September 05, 2008, 09:05:52 AM »
And you visiting our country is a perfect example as to why non citizens here in Canada should be given proper legal representation.  It does not take much to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I'm all for that kind of legal representation. 

But I think you misunderstood my point about welfare.  I never meant that welfare was the way to go for anyone.  What I meant was that for A LOT of people who come here from a country say like Afghanistan or Iraq living on welfare here beats what they had back there hands down. 

Offline Metalhawk

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Re: Non Citizens
« Reply #31 on: September 05, 2008, 01:22:49 PM »
Obviously you have not looked all that hard, or walked around with your eyes closed. I am talking about families that live paycheque to paycheque, who have to get vouchers for second hand clothing, the money goes to nothing more than rent and food.  The houses they are living in are owned by slumlords who do everything they can in scaring their tenants to get as much out of them as possible, and then threatening legal action should they not adhere to the slumlords demands, they have no choice because they do not have the money to fight a legal battle, and are often denied legal aid as well.

It may not be apparent in cities like Ottawa, Toronto, Vancouver, where many of those who are poor are also homeless, but go out to the more rural towns where these families are struggling to live.

Rose, Canada does have a safety net, but unfortunately it is filled with holes. For one to get welfare they also give up any child benefit cheques they receive, leaving them in the same financial position they were prior to welfare.

Sure, give these people money to help them stay afloat, but where is the training and education to give them further opportunities to better themselves?

Unless you think living merely with a roof over your head is a "good standard of living".

I think what FV means is that even Canada's poor have it good compared to other places. Go to Haiti and compare, or to Chad, Sudan, etc. Even the middle class citizens of those countries have it worse than Canada's poor.
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Offline Broken Bones

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Re: Non Citizens
« Reply #32 on: September 05, 2008, 02:18:14 PM »
I won't disagree when looking at that, but don't go kidding yourself if you think Canada is doing everything possible to help these families.

Offline RideauDreaming

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Re: Non Citizens
« Reply #33 on: September 12, 2008, 01:48:03 AM »
I'm all for that kind of legal representation. 

But I think you misunderstood my point about welfare.  I never meant that welfare was the way to go for anyone.  What I meant was that for A LOT of people who come here from a country say like Afghanistan or Iraq living on welfare here beats what they had back there hands down. 

It's a tough issue. They didn't get welfare back home, but then they didn't need to pay for housing or everything was cheap as well. If you allow refugees into your country then you have to support them until they gain qualifications. It's hard going as education is not cheap.

The only beef i have on this topic is people who are dual citizens, who spend years abroad and yet still claim benefits from canada event though they pay no taxes and contribute nothing to canada. I'd be all for cutting out their payments. And the same goes for refugees who commit awful crimes, they can get deported too.
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Offline Dagwood

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Re: Non Citizens
« Reply #34 on: September 12, 2008, 12:50:59 PM »
I won't disagree when looking at that, but don't go kidding yourself if you think Canada is doing everything possible to help these families.

Hmm...

I have always admired the Welfare recipients I've known and seen over the years with:

Cars
Satellite TV
Cell Phones
Internet

And then line up for those Clothing coupons and Food Bank donations.   Not all....but a significant portion of Welfare Folks.

In fact.....I have often felt I would be better off to quit my job and go on Welfare.  It would be far less stressfull than trying to ensure you make enough $$$$ to pay for everything....most of which is handed to Welfare recipients.

Nothing and NOTHING exemplifies this more than when my Brother-In-Laws wife decided to leave him.  Not for any apparent reason other than she just wanted to be on her own again.  Welfare stepped in.....Helped her secure a new apartment and then insisted.......that's INSISTED that they provide her with all brand new appliances and throw out the stuff that was already there.  Love my tax dollars at work  :duh

As for immigrants that come to Canada and then live on Welfare.... Sorry.....but I say don't let them in to start with.
If you are unable to support yourself, then don't bother coming.  instead.....Canada let's them in, furnishes them with apartments and everthing else....then several families move in together...alll collecting cheques....and before you know it..... they are further ahead than citizens born and raised here.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2008, 12:54:06 PM by Dagwood »
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Offline Broken Bones

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Re: Non Citizens
« Reply #35 on: September 12, 2008, 01:21:42 PM »
Would you apply that to the refugees too Dags?  If you don't have any skills don't bother coming?

Offline butterfly_style

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Re: Non Citizens
« Reply #36 on: September 12, 2008, 01:24:40 PM »
Quote from: Dagwood
As for immigrants that come to Canada and then live on Welfare.... Sorry.....but I say don't let them in to start with.
True, we should them be persecuted in their own country.

Quote from: Dagwood
If you are unable to support yourself, then don't bother coming.  instead.....Canada let's them in, furnishes them with apartments and everthing else....then several families move in together...alll collecting cheques....and before you know it..... they are further ahead than citizens born and raised here.
Maybe we should recognise some of the credentials that these people posess.
I was in a cab the other day, and the driver had a PHD in engineering.
He worked a second job, cleaning office buildings at night to put food on the table. . . .And so he wouldn't have to accept Welfare.

Yeah, dont let this friggin' immigrant into our country

« Last Edit: September 12, 2008, 01:32:57 PM by butterfly_style »

Offline rose

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Re: Non Citizens
« Reply #37 on: September 12, 2008, 01:36:55 PM »
It may not be apparent in cities like Ottawa, Toronto, Vancouver, where many of those who are poor are also homeless, but go out to the more rural towns where these families are struggling to live.

Rose, Canada does have a safety net, but unfortunately it is filled with holes. For one to get welfare they also give up any child benefit cheques they receive, leaving them in the same financial position they were prior to welfare.

Sure, give these people money to help them stay afloat, but where is the training and education to give them further opportunities to better themselves?

Unless you think living merely with a roof over your head is a "good standard of living".

I think we are looking at this from different perspectives or, at least, definitions of "extreme" poverty.  I suppose to simplify from my point of view, extreme poverty in Canada is a lot different than extreme poverty in less-developed nations.
"If you can't make up your mind, 'What the hell' is usually the right answer."  Ellen Reid Smith

Offline Dagwood

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Re: Non Citizens
« Reply #38 on: September 20, 2008, 01:21:05 AM »
Would you apply that to the refugees too Dags?  If you don't have any skills don't bother coming?

I think instead of spending billions of dollars supporting other countries and/or people coming to live here...
The gov't should take care of it's own backyard first.  My taxes keep going up and yet people born and raised here are ending up on the streets because they lack the skills or can't find jobs because the competition keeps coming from outside out boarders.  You want to live here....pay some $$$$ for the priviledge. This open door policy has to change.
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Offline Broken Bones

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Re: Non Citizens
« Reply #39 on: September 20, 2008, 08:12:05 AM »
I think instead of spending billions of dollars supporting other countries and/or people coming to live here...
The gov't should take care of it's own backyard first.  My taxes keep going up and yet people born and raised here are ending up on the streets because they lack the skills or can't find jobs because the competition keeps coming from outside out boarders.  You want to live here....pay some $$$$ for the priviledge. This open door policy has to change.

I do agree that Canadians need to be taken care of better as we pay taxes our entire lives here in Canada.  A refugee is not an easy thing, Canada is all about helping others, so it's difficult for me to say close the door completely, but maybe rather review the "qualifications" one needs in order to claim refugee status.  I mean hell, we have American soldiers who have come up to Canada to avoid going to combat who want such a status, when at most they will receive is a dishonorable discharge and a couple months, or at most a few years in prison.