Author Topic: Checking To Be Removed From PeeWee  (Read 4353 times)

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Offline stone169

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Checking To Be Removed From PeeWee
« on: May 26, 2013, 08:54:25 AM »
Just saw this article on TSN.


[size=78%]http://www.tsn.ca/canadian_hockey/story/?id=423976[/size]


I do know that they don't start body contact in the States until Bantam and I had heard that they don't start until Junior in Europe (not sure if that is true or not).  Although the argument that kids vary in weight and size at this age is a good one.  And I do know that a lot of kids will go back to house league because of the hitting.[/size]  [size=78%][/size]At the same time they start hitting in house league lacrosse at Peanut age (that's IP in hockey years) and football they start hitting right from the get go.  Truth is parents will just as easily put their kids back in House League because of the costs that go with playing rep hockey.  [size=78%]

[/size]It doesn't matter what age they start at, you'll still have the same problems.  There are coaches and associations out there that encourage their kids to hit dirty.  I can name one association in particular who's teams have all been at the bottom of the "B" standings from major peewee up to minor midget (733 minutes in 30 game) and have lead all their respective divisions in penalty minutes except for minor bantam where they were 3rd with over 500 minutes in 30 games.  Do you think the league actually takes notice and talks to these associations? I don't really think so.  Hitting doesn't need to change, it's the attitude behind the hits that needs to change.  It's associations, like the one above that I mentioned, that needs to be cleaned up and until that happens you will always have problems with kids getting seriously hurt and issues concerning safety on the ice.[size=78%]


My son has never played contact hockey until he made our local rep team this past season as a Minor Bantam.  He loves the physical aspect of the game and that's why he wanted to play rep.  He was sick and tired of being targeted by house league refs because he was the usually the biggest kid on the ice and half of the penalties that he'd take were "big kid" penalties, and this past season he wasn't even close to being the penalty minute leader on the team.  If anything contact hockey has renewed my son's interest in playing the game and his love for hockey.


Personally I'm kind of on the fence on this one as I see both sides of the argument.  I don't want to see a kid get hurt and I definitely don't want to see my son get hurt.  It's not a great feeling at all.  The truth is though, that when it comes to my kids, I worry about their safety the minute they walk out the door.  It doesn't stop me from letting them do the things they want to do or encouraging them to do so.


Anyways I know that this is always a topic of discussion no matter where you go.
There are good coaches and there are bad coaches, the real question is "Do you want this person to be a role model to your kids for the next 6 months".  That's the question you have to ask yourself.

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Offline Metalhawk

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Re: Checking To Be Removed From PeeWee
« Reply #1 on: May 26, 2013, 12:03:53 PM »
I agree with Don Cheery on this one (*gasp*) but they should split it in contact vs non-contact leagues. Or are they afraid they won't have enough kids to fill teams in the non-contact leagues?
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Offline stone169

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Re: Checking To Be Removed From PeeWee
« Reply #2 on: May 26, 2013, 03:55:41 PM »
House League is supposed to be non-contact.  At least in Ottawa.
There are good coaches and there are bad coaches, the real question is "Do you want this person to be a role model to your kids for the next 6 months".  That's the question you have to ask yourself.

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Offline Sasquatch

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Re: Checking To Be Removed From PeeWee
« Reply #3 on: May 26, 2013, 04:23:44 PM »
I thought all minor hockey was non contact, and only rep or major allowed contact

Offline stone169

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Re: Checking To Be Removed From PeeWee
« Reply #4 on: May 26, 2013, 07:31:43 PM »
I thought all minor hockey was non contact, and only rep or major allowed contact


Rep is contact from PeeWee and up.  House League is non-contact.  Although, I believe the By-Town association allows contact in the "A" tiering of house league.  I know in Smith Falls they were allowing contact in a higher tiering of house league.  I'm not sure if they're still doing that or not.
There are good coaches and there are bad coaches, the real question is "Do you want this person to be a role model to your kids for the next 6 months".  That's the question you have to ask yourself.

Go Sarnia Jr. Sting Minor Midget MD!!!!!

Offline FV

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Re: Checking To Be Removed From PeeWee
« Reply #5 on: May 27, 2013, 08:51:36 AM »
I coached in Ajax and it has always been contact in house league.
 
Banning contact in hockey is an idiotic decision.  Let them learn to take a hit and throw a hit right from the get go.  Why let them start hitting when they are 14 and you can have some players that have 100lbs on another player? 
 
The pansification of hockey continues......
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Offline Billy_Muckwalt

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Re: Checking To Be Removed From PeeWee
« Reply #6 on: May 27, 2013, 08:39:04 PM »
There will always be a weight difference at every level of hockey, right up to the NHL. That part of the argument has no value. I grew up playing contact hockey and football my entire life and here's how I see it...

People get 'contact ' mixed up with 'collision'. Its the later that has a much better chance of resulting in a player injury. Its the collision of two unprepared players, unsure of what is occurring on the ice, and unable to defend themselves properly that has resulted in the major injuries in my experience. 
Holding hitting back will only enable this further...

Why shorten the amount of time our jr players have to learn to read the ice,  take a hit, identify players on the other team who are the 'hitters' etc in a contact environment ?? Basically build up awareness within a contact hockey setting.  So the 100 pound kid getting hit by a 130 pound kid simply gets puched up to a 115 kid getting smached by a 145lb kid? Cmon.

A fair played solid, angled body check in which the players goal is to separate the puck from the player, very rarely results in any type of injury.   A player charging, boarding or colliding with another unsuspecting player usually does .... 

Refs, League Commish's, Coaches simply need to teach the basics and what the expectations are around hitting, what is allowed, what wont be tolterated.... Then, crack down with zero tolerance to the idiots that try to deliberately use excessive force when body checking. 

Sure they took data from Quebec. But 5 years isn't nearly enough and I hate to say it, but playing a few years in the Quebec leagues was pretty brutal when it came to cheap shots etc. Probably not the best leagues data to use....

Seems like the people in charge have no clue. I hate to say it, but it's not about making sure the 5'1 100 lb 14 year old has the option to play top tier hockey... At some point, you are either able to play, or not. That sounds harsh, but thats the side of sports very few can understand. There will always be house league etc. Thats not an elitist viewpoint either. Some may argue the point that Canada's bigger sized players should not be punished.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2013, 08:46:06 PM by Billy_Muckwalt »
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Offline thirstymoose_2000

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Re: Checking To Be Removed From PeeWee
« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2013, 04:22:44 PM »
First, it is "CHECKING" vs "NON-CHECKING". There will still be "CONTACT".


CHECKING is a body-to-body hit, contact happens, and remains to be allowed, while making plays for the puck.



I believe it is a good move. It will give kids an additional two years to learn the very important skills associated with the checking game - tracking, angling and pinning - which are all still allowed, and encouraged to be used, if you listened to the Hockey Canada announcement.


Most PeeWee-aged kids still do not have the core strength, neck strength (key to reducing concussions) or skating ability to be checking, even at tier two and three rep (AA/A or A/B  depending on your loop). There is no place for checking at house anymore, and with LCMHL removing it this summer, all ODMHA (Ottawa area) house leagues are now non-checking.


The intention of a check in minor hockey has, over the past 20 years, moved away from 'removing the man from the puck' and kids are now trying to 'remove a head from a player'. Unfortunately, these adult expectations are being taught to 13 year old kids by parents and coaches.


With this announcement, kids will be able to better develop their core skills while building a solid foundation for checking. Learning is all about progressions, and I believe that this approach will actually be of more benefit to the kids in the long-term.


My 2 cents.




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Offline FV

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Re: Checking To Be Removed From PeeWee
« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2013, 08:21:14 AM »
Why should there be no place for checking in house league???  Why should they be deprived?? 
 
If your kid doesn't want to get hit and just wants to go for a skate and play shinny then sign him up for a non-contact league.  Nothing wrong with that at all.
 
Just wish people would leave the game alone. 

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Offline thirstymoose_2000

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Re: Checking To Be Removed From PeeWee
« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2013, 03:06:10 PM »
No such thing as a non-contact league.


It is non-checking vs checking.


Kids in house are still allowed to get body position and rub off on the boards. What is missing is the open ice "hits" and body-to-body "hit". No need for it, with any luck they will all survive minor hockey without losing their love for the game and still enjoy it enough to play in beer league - where there is NO CHECKING!


The only people that will be "deprived" are the Dads who, for whatever reason, feel the need to live vicariously through their kids smashing into other kids.



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Offline FV

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Re: Checking To Be Removed From PeeWee
« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2013, 04:04:21 PM »
You really think you need Dads to tell their 15 year old boys to hit?  I've coached all levels and they all want to hit and house players are just as capable of hitting and getting hit as a rep player.


Anyway, not going to argue.  The bleeding hearts have apparently won and the pansification is already well underway.
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Offline thirstymoose_2000

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Re: Checking To Be Removed From PeeWee
« Reply #11 on: June 18, 2013, 05:55:09 PM »
In our association, there were actually a number of midget-aged kids who initiated a non-checking team last year because they just wanted to play for fun without all the BS that goes with it. As is the case in the GTA and other areas as well, a number of these kids are very skilled and dropped from rep to house so they could play for fun rather than for the expectations of others.


"The bleeding hearts have apparently won and the pansification is already well underway."

LOL, that tells me all I need to know.


PS - if you ever have a chance to sit-in on a clinic presented by Dr. Kristian Goulet, I would suggest it to anyone. Very scary. He trained down in the states and has studied the brains of professional athletes from NHL, NFL, boxing ...
« Last Edit: June 18, 2013, 06:05:36 PM by thirstymoose_2000 »
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Offline Billy_Muckwalt

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Re: Checking To Be Removed From PeeWee
« Reply #12 on: June 18, 2013, 08:35:38 PM »
First, it is "CHECKING" vs "NON-CHECKING". There will still be "CONTACT".


CHECKING is a body-to-body hit, contact happens, and remains to be allowed, while making plays for the puck.



I believe it is a good move. It will give kids an additional two years to learn the very important skills associated with the checking game - tracking, angling and pinning - which are all still allowed, and encouraged to be used, if you listened to the Hockey Canada announcement.


Most PeeWee-aged kids still do not have the core strength, neck strength (key to reducing concussions) or skating ability to be checking, even at tier two and three rep (AA/A or A/B  depending on your loop). There is no place for checking at house anymore, and with LCMHL removing it this summer, all ODMHA (Ottawa area) house leagues are now non-checking.


The intention of a check in minor hockey has, over the past 20 years, moved away from 'removing the man from the puck' and kids are now trying to 'remove a head from a player'. Unfortunately, these adult expectations are being taught to 13 year old kids by parents and coaches.


With this announcement, kids will be able to better develop their core skills while building a solid foundation for checking. Learning is all about progressions, and I believe that this approach will actually be of more benefit to the kids in the long-term.


My 2 cents.






'Checking' and 'Contact Hockey' have been interchangeably used since I was 3.

Seems like your angle here is instead of cracking down on those very few who are head hunting, it's better to just ban it altogether and hold hands...

To say 'most' PeeWee aged kids don't have enough core strength to lay a body check is completely false in my experience.  In my league we had lots of strong kids playing who had no problems hitting.

And to say that hitting has got worse the past years is laughable. Its got more tame!
Back then goonery was in it's prime. We even had fights at that level. Bob Probert, Dave Brown, Joey Kocur ruled the rinks. Hockey has really cleaned up over the years and as a result so has the coaching and leadership. It was brutal 20 years ago. Most coaches had no certification other than a hot temper.

Overall this just sounds nice to the parents who have a young boy in hockey. The responsible safe play...
But the reality is, it's going to do nothing to lower the amount of injuries, just push it back a few years. 

Im not a doom n gloomer thinking this is the beginning of the end of Canadian hockey, just that this is the wrong move.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2013, 08:50:39 PM by Billy_Muckwalt »
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Offline thirstymoose_2000

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Re: Checking To Be Removed From PeeWee
« Reply #13 on: June 19, 2013, 01:47:53 PM »
As I have been explaing above, "checking" and "contact" are different. Period. They are definded as such by all governing bodies including Hockey Canada (and its branches), USA Hockey, IIHF, etc. You may be using them interchangably, but it is incorrect to do so.

PeeWee kids for the most part do not have the core strength, and in fact their muscles are just starting to develop at this age as they go through a period of farily rapid growth. This isn't based on my experience, but on the experience of the many experts in this field.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Body Contact
Defensive play begins the moment the opposing team has of the puck and checking is used to regain possession of the puck. In some levels of ice hockey Body Checking is not allowed, to let skills develop and for safety reasons, but in all levels of hockey Body Contact happens and is permitted.
Body contact is the next stage used to separate the puck carrier from the puck, when a player
positions their body between the puck and the puck carrier.

Body contact, must result only from the forward movement of the puck carrier into the defender.
Key teaching points for body contact:
1. Reinforce angling/positioning skills as well as further enhancing the required skating skills
2. Emphasize and further enhance the concept of controlling and the containing of your opponent
Stay in the Ready position

Body Block
This is an action where the defender is face-to face with the puck carrier and moves into their
skating path. The goal is to delay or stop the puck carrier’s forward progress.

Key Points:
• Player watches the opponent’s upper body, peripheral vision on the puck.
• Player moves in front of the puck carrier’s direction of skating
• Defender has a solid base of support with the knees bent and the hands down (Figure
8 below).
• Puck carrier skates into the defender who extend the legs on contact

Rub Out

This type of body contact occurs when players are moving in the same direct (defender has
angled the puck carrier) and the defenders movement is towards the puck.
Key Points:
• Defender is parallel to the puck carrier with the knees bent and the hands down.
• As contact is made the defender pushes or rubs the puck carrier with enough force to
the hip and shoulders to the boards (Figure 9).
• The rubbing will cause a turning or rolling around the point of impact forcing the
opponent’s chest to the boards.
• Defender can keep skating and take possession of the puck or pin the opponent on the
boards

Source: IIHF Coaching Manual, Level 1.6 (also goes into definition and skills related to "checking")
« Last Edit: June 19, 2013, 01:51:29 PM by thirstymoose_2000 »
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Offline Billy_Muckwalt

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Re: Checking To Be Removed From PeeWee
« Reply #14 on: June 19, 2013, 05:29:15 PM »
I am familiar with the rulebook and your reasons. I am saying many people interchangeably use these terms regardless. Maybe aside from banning 'checking' parents and players should also be forced to take an IIHF exam to ensure they have the academics to play as well....Split the season up between in class teaching as well as games.   :A_laughing_matter:


I shouldnt give any ideas tho....




The difference here is you listen to so called experts who carry clip boards and although they have their reasons, they still have their flaws.... I just look back at my own experiences in top tier hockey as well as my brothers, cousins and friends and think its asinine..... What about football too? I started when I was 8. I was able to hit, by the time I was 12 I was laying people out cleanly, hitting low etc. I wasnt the hardest hitter either, I just had excellent coaches. Lack of Core strength was second to positioning and angling of the tackle. 


Same in hockey, we had solid coaches who didnt put up with BS and taught the right skills. This is all about retaining players in amatuer hockey and not scaring the parents, not entierly safety.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2013, 05:32:40 PM by Billy_Muckwalt »
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Offline thirstymoose_2000

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Re: Checking To Be Removed From PeeWee
« Reply #15 on: June 19, 2013, 05:47:55 PM »
If by "academics" you mean some of the best hockey minds who are at the edge of change and innovation.
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Offline thirstymoose_2000

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Re: Checking To Be Removed From PeeWee
« Reply #16 on: June 20, 2013, 10:25:26 AM »
Here is a letter by "so called expert who carries a clip board," Mike Milbury, the very man who coined the term 'pansification', who was at the helm of the change in the States. Below that is a pretty good speech from Brian Burke.


Two guys I hate to agree with, but both are pretty bang-on with my own views on, and observations of many subjects concerning minor hockey.


Changing The Checking Age Does Not Soften Our Sport
By:  Mike Milbury


I don’t want to be confused with somebody who has gone “wimpish” on the sport of hockey. I think we’ve had a lot of “soccer mom” mentality creeping into our game, and I know much of it is based in a very real concern for concussions and other types of injuries. With that said, I don’t want to take it too far.

I was honored to join USA Hockey’s subcommittee on body checking and feel that I have a broad background that allows me to bring something to the table on this important topic.

The subcommittee consisted of some very educated individuals who care deeply about the game. Nobody was getting paid or had a hidden agenda. Some were adamantly opposed to changing the rules on checking and others were fully supportive of the change. That was the starting point for the dialogue that followed.

Information was presented from many different points of view. Some focused on the competitive and skill development side while others came at it from a physiological perspective. As a parent, I listened with great interest as Dr. Michael Stuart presented information that indicated that kids under the age of 11 or even 12 were more susceptible to concussions, and also that the impact of those concussions could last for extended periods of time.

Clearly, kids at that age are not developed physically enough to enter into this kind of contact without real jeopardy to their health. That was a no brainer to begin with, but it was more than that.

The majority of us who sat on the subcommittee are not doctors and are not in a position to discuss the physiological impact checking has on the game. But it was up to us to talk about how it impacted the skill development of our young players at such a pivotal point in their lives.

As much as I love the rough nature of the game, you have to learn how to play the game first. Common sense would dictate that if you can’t skate, you can’t play. Our biggest and most physical kids also need to have the skills to be able to play at a higher level. Let them become familiar with how to make a backhand pass and play in a two-on-one situation. This is critical in order to achieve continued success and upward movement in the game of hockey.

I have my own kids. I don’t want to see them get hurt; I want them to have a good time. I want to see body contact and body positioning, but what I really want to see is kids playing the game the right way. Our focus needs to be on developing the foundation that will serve kids for as long as they play the game. Our rush to introduce physical play at a young age closes that window of opportunity.

When we get kids at 11 and 12 years of age, some of them have vast disparities in height and weight and even degrees of passion about the sport. Some of them can become overwhelmed when it comes to the physical play. In our rush to introduce checking we run the risk of losing kids who are on the bubble and may not have developed their bodies to the point where they can effectively give and take a check.

Don’t get me wrong. I love the physical part of the game, but I believe the introduction of physical play into the game should come at a deliberate pace. It starts with teaching body contact — rubbing, bumping, edging out and gaining proper positioning on an opponent — rather than focusing on hard hits.

And when we do introduce checking, we need to teach players to check hard and check clean. No rational person or player wants to leave the rink knowing that he just broke someone’s jaw or he gave a guy a concussion that might alter his life. Nobody wants to live with that.

I dread the day when we take out the physical element of the game because we are worried about safety issues. If you’re too worried, don’t play. There’s an element of risk in a lot of things we choose to do — rock climbing, skiing, cycling — and hockey is no exception. Still, we owe it to our kids and we owe it to the game to make it as safe as possible.

Even at the youngest age levels, there will always be races for loose pucks and battles in the corner and in front of the net. Those one-on-one battles are what make hockey such a great game to play. The game will still be physical, it will still be fast and it will still be fun. It will also be safer.

This rule change proposal isn’t about checking being removed; it’s about checking being improved. And for the good of our sport, this checking model needs to be adopted when it comes up for a vote.


Mike Milbury has been involved in hockey for more than 50 years. He played collegiate hockey at Colgate University and went on to a 12-year NHL career with the Boston Bruins. After retiring as a player, Milbury went on to serve as head coach with the Bruins and New York Islanders before taking over the role as the Islanders general manager. He is currently working as a commentator for NESN, Hockey Night in Canada and NBC’s weekly hockey broadcast. He has six children and is currently an assistant coach with his son’s Peewee team. He is also a valued member of the USA Hockey Checking Subcommittee.

[/size][size=78%]And a good speech from Brian Burke:[/size]
http://usahockey.cachefly.net/BurkeADMsymposium.wmv
« Last Edit: June 20, 2013, 10:28:46 AM by thirstymoose_2000 »
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Offline Billy_Muckwalt

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Re: Checking To Be Removed From PeeWee
« Reply #17 on: June 20, 2013, 01:28:42 PM »
Quote
Here is a letter by "so called expert who carries a clip board," Mike Milbury

Mike Milbury is dilusional. He is not looked upon as someone who makes good decisions. This one included.
He's the last person who should be part of this. He's even raged on the air at times... He's an idiot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PsEXqCXycRA


This is his legacy ... This a hole should be banned from speaking to PeeWee players.  ;)

Quote
This rule change proposal isn’t about checking being removed; it’s about checking being improved.

Not going to happen. You dont have to push HITTING err checking back a year in order to improve it.  Learning to check is learning to check... pretty simple.  If anything, its more harmful to learn in a game environment when the kids are bigger and can do more damage. The earlier they learn how to protect themselves and deliver clean HITS, the better ...  :D

I can't wait to see the data in a few years which proves this has no impact. Its just about retaining players in minor hockey and not scaring the parents or kids away. Also it's to allow smaller kids to play hockey without fear of being hit. Thats all....

And here it is...

Quote
I have my own kids. I don’t want to see them get hurt; I want them to have a good time.

This is the reason behind this asinine ruling...


 
« Last Edit: June 20, 2013, 01:47:54 PM by Billy_Muckwalt »
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Offline thirstymoose_2000

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Re: Checking To Be Removed From PeeWee
« Reply #18 on: June 20, 2013, 02:49:35 PM »
" Learning to check is learning to check... pretty simple"
[/size]
[/size]There are progressions in everything that is taught.
[/size]
[/size]Before they check, they should have a solid foundation in angling, tracking, rubbing, gaining body position, stick checks, defensive positioning, etc ... PeeWee-aged kids now have two extra years to master the related skills and tactics before progressing to checking. The introduction to checking should then be much safer, and more game-related.

[/size]There will be plenty of physical play and contact.
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Offline Billy_Muckwalt

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Re: Checking To Be Removed From PeeWee
« Reply #19 on: June 20, 2013, 03:23:33 PM »

Quote
Before they check, they should have a solid foundation in angling, tracking, rubbing, gaining body position, stick checks, defensive positioning, etc ...


Agreed. I mean if you have come that far why not just leave checking in then? Its just too conveluted.
I am not in anyway a believer that this will impact the talent of players Canada produces, just that it's more of a knee jerk reaction from the fallout of all the concussion talk over the past couple years.

I guess we'll just have to wait for the data in a few years to see if this makes a difference.

And lets not forget who ran out on the ice to attack a 12 year old.... Its stupid to have Milbury involved in any of this.

« Last Edit: June 20, 2013, 03:31:47 PM by Billy_Muckwalt »
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