Author Topic: Official Lalime Watch...... (Vol. 1: July 17/03 - Dec.5/04)  (Read 55602 times)

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Offline Docawesome

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As Otherdave mentioned in a previous post:
Quote
Lalime is an average goaltender whose style works very well in Ottawa's system. His weaknesses are exposed when the team in front of him doesn't hold up their end of the bargain.


I think OD speaks truth when he says that Lalime's style works very well behind Ottawa's defence. But I think there's a lot more to it than just that.

4 points:

1-Looks average at times.

2-Looks elite at times. Example - OT in game 6 in New Jersey.

3-Looks bad at times. (But so do all goaltenders)

4-looks as good as the defence in front of him.

So overall, taking all 4 of those points and making a salad, is Lalime elite? Or is he just average?

In my opinion Lalime is kind of stuck in between (I know thats a lame interpretation). You cannot say that Lalime is "just average" because Hacket, Dafoe, Salo, and Cloutier are just average. Since he is better than all of those 4, he can't be classified as an average goaltender.

Lalime is not an elite goaltender either. Currently, there are only 3 elite goaltenders in the league - Roy, Hasek, and Brodeur. Lalime is not as good as any of those 3.

So where does Lalime rank in the hierarchy of NHL goaltenders? Is there a name for it?

doc

P.S. I argued for 5 pages with DallasSensFan that Lalime is elite. Now I admit that Lalime is not elite. I guess I'm going to get shot by the Dallas Mafia or something. :mrgreen:



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Offline JustLearning

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Official Lalime Watch...... (Vol. 1: July 17/03 - Dec.5/04)
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2003, 10:11:34 PM »
Patrick is very good. Patrick is not yet elite...but he will be. I feel that his growth as a goaltender is running parallel to the growth of our young team of players who will also be in that category very soon.

I think that even though Patrick seems to have his own method of play, it's still in the development stage and needs just a little more polish before we can call what he has 'his style'. He's got the right mix of spirit, temperment, speed, agility and confidence; his hard work and dedication to becoming one of the best goalies in the league has never come into question.

He is growing with our team. As Marian, Daniel, Mike, Martin and the others grow and become stars, so too will he...not ahead of his team but right along side them. They will all be elite in time and that time is coming very soon.
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Offline sens_fan_6

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Official Lalime Watch...... (Vol. 1: July 17/03 - Dec.5/04)
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2003, 10:41:24 PM »
Patrick's a good goaltender. I wouldn't say he's exactly amongst the elite yet, but he's not average either- he's in between, but I think its right to call him a good goaltender because he has been good for our team most of the time.  Like JL said, he's growing with the rest of the other teammates. Goaltenders like Brodeur, Roy, and Hasek are elite because they've been playing in nets for a long time now.

Patrick was drafted in 1993 by the Penguins and then he was playing in the minors for awhile until the 1996-1997 season when he played in the NHL for the first time. Then he was a backup goalie for our team for awhile, and then he actually got more ice team only a couple years ago for our team, so he hasn't been in the NHL nets for a very long time.

Patrick Lalime will eventually become elite.
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Offline plcamp

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Official Lalime Watch...... (Vol. 1: July 17/03 - Dec.5/04)
« Reply #3 on: July 18, 2003, 09:09:54 AM »
He isn't 'elite' until you can point at an example where he's the main reason success was achieved. I maintain that whetever degree of success is claimed by Ottawa in this year's playoffs, you certainly cannot point at Lalime as a MAIN CAUSE of that success. I suggest, actually, that in many games success occurred DESPITE Lalime's less than solid play.

Curiously enough - at times the guy is brilliant in nets and really DOES make the difference.

But I can't see him as 'elite' unless and until his occasional brilliance is paired up with playoff consistency. He was horribly inconsistent this playoff year, and he set up many losses for Ottawa, some of which were overcome by a team in front of him that is easily the best in the league.

Ask yourself these questions - would round three have even been close were the two goaltenders swapped? - would there have been any major difference in Ottawa's playoff achievement this year if they had gone with Prusek through the playoffs? Just the fact you have to think about your answer to these questions proves outright Lalime isn't elite.

MAYBE he will grow some more and deliver at an elite level - no reason to state today that this will happen.
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Offline OS

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Official Lalime Watch...... (Vol. 1: July 17/03 - Dec.5/04)
« Reply #4 on: July 18, 2003, 09:33:05 AM »
I put him as a good solid above average right now.  He is clearly above a raft of journeyman out there but hasn't hit the breakthrough with consistency.

The playoffs teams had him pegged pretty well and a lot of the goals were similar - rising shots from the point caught him going to his knees which left a hole under the cross bar, and rushing angle shots.

SI has a profile that puts it well "attackers quickly changing the shooting angle on the rush give him the most trouble. "   The full article is here http://tinyurl.com/akrp and is pretty fair.

He deserves credit for big improvements in controlling rebounds and his puck handling. He isn't Brodeur in puckhandling but it is better and his decision making on when to use it is better.  

Ottawa has one of the best NHL goal tending coaches (Phil Myre) and is a factor that will see Lalime get better.

Offline Dagwood

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Official Lalime Watch...... (Vol. 1: July 17/03 - Dec.5/04)
« Reply #5 on: July 18, 2003, 09:47:46 AM »
I would be happy if Lalime would just stop the shots from 20' out (or top of circle).  Like others have said, he is good, but letting in the first goal in more than one playoff series/game is not a habit I want to see continue.

That being said, I'm certain Patty will be even stronger this year :-)
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Offline Jenn_#11fan

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Official Lalime Watch...... (Vol. 1: July 17/03 - Dec.5/04)
« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2003, 10:09:22 AM »
Just Learning I think summed it up perfectly. Not elite yet, but is on the way there. Only Broduer, and now Hasek since he's back, are the only true elite goalies in my mind. So to say he's not elite isn't a bad thing. But he's clearly above average, and anything less than above average I see as an insult. He IS better than that. He will continue to improve along with the team.

He's had his bad games, and there are times where he is unbelievable. His performance is reflective of the team as a whole - excellent mostly but sometimes lacks consistency. I have every confidence in the world that his game will improve, he will win more games for us, and will be key in winning the cup this year. I'm sure sooner than later he will become finally elite. Also, remember he's not even 30 yet...

Anyway, whatever anyone else says, I believe in him.

Offline momr

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Official Lalime Watch...... (Vol. 1: July 17/03 - Dec.5/04)
« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2003, 10:21:17 AM »
The reason why Brodeur, Roy and Hasek are elite is because they have the awards to prove it.  Lalime doesn't.  Had we won the Cup this year, we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

Offline OS

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Official Lalime Watch...... (Vol. 1: July 17/03 - Dec.5/04)
« Reply #8 on: July 18, 2003, 10:30:44 AM »
Even with a cup I think there would still be a debate because of the strength of the Sens D.   Broduer didn't get much credit at first even though they won the cup, and even the Vezina this year was panned by many as a lifetime achievement award.   (which is grossly unfair)

Offline Pylon

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Official Lalime Watch...... (Vol. 1: July 17/03 - Dec.5/04)
« Reply #9 on: July 18, 2003, 10:39:38 AM »
I think he's elite.  And I think the primary reason he had so many first goals against was that his D was so supremely confident in his ability to hold them in the game, even being down a goal, that they were taking chances.  As many first goals he let in, the number of odd-man rushes the Sens gave up these playoffs were remarkably uncharacteristic.  It's a testament, IMO, to Lalime's confidence and level-headedness.  He plays the same after letting up embarassing goals as he does absolutely dominating a team.

Offline JustLearning

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Official Lalime Watch...... (Vol. 1: July 17/03 - Dec.5/04)
« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2003, 11:05:50 AM »
Quote from: Pylon
I think he's elite.  And I think the primary reason he had so many first goals against was that his D was so supremely confident in his ability to hold them in the game, even being down a goal, that they were taking chances.  As many first goals he let in, the number of odd-man rushes the Sens gave up these playoffs were remarkably uncharacteristic.  It's a testament, IMO, to Lalime's confidence and level-headedness.  He plays the same after letting up embarassing goals as he does absolutely dominating a team.
I think the fact that Patrick is not tempermental is one of his strengths. Watching him play at the Corel Centre, you can see very clearly that there isn't too much that upsets him even after he allows a 'stupid' goal. That attitude also help keep the rest of the team on an even keel. If he doesn't get upset, neither will they.
I'm really going to miss you A-Train  :byebye:

Offline DallasSENSFan

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Official Lalime Watch...... (Vol. 1: July 17/03 - Dec.5/04)
« Reply #11 on: July 18, 2003, 11:24:23 AM »
Ok....Now that all your brains have thawed out  :lol:  Your coming around to what I was saying in the first place.  :roll:

AVERAGE and soon to be Elite!
16 playoff wins=Holy Grail.....Sens 2006...Can't wait to pad the stats against the Blues!

Offline DallasSENSFan

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Re: The Lalime debate
« Reply #12 on: July 18, 2003, 11:27:00 AM »
Quote from: docawesome
As Otherdave mentioned in a previous post:
Quote
Lalime is an average goaltender whose style works very well in Ottawa's system. His weaknesses are exposed when the team in front of him doesn't hold up their end of the bargain.


I think OD speaks truth when he says that Lalime's style works very well behind Ottawa's defence. But I think there's a lot more to it than just that.

4 points:

1-Looks average at times.

2-Looks elite at times. Example - OT in game 6 in New Jersey.

3-Looks bad at times. (But so do all goaltenders)

4-looks as good as the defence in front of him.

So overall, taking all 4 of those points and making a salad, is Lalime elite? Or is he just average?

In my opinion Lalime is kind of stuck in between (I know thats a lame interpretation). You cannot say that Lalime is "just average" because Hacket, Dafoe, Salo, and Cloutier are just average. Since he is better than all of those 4, he can't be classified as an average goaltender.

Lalime is not an elite goaltender either. Currently, there are only 3 elite goaltenders in the league - Roy, Hasek, and Brodeur. Lalime is not as good as any of those 3.

So where does Lalime rank in the hierarchy of NHL goaltenders? Is there a name for it?

doc

P.S. I argued for 5 pages with DallasSensFan that Lalime is elite. Now I admit that Lalime is not elite. I guess I'm going to get shot by the Dallas Mafia or something. :mrgreen:


It's Ok Doc, some of us are quicker than others :lol:
16 playoff wins=Holy Grail.....Sens 2006...Can't wait to pad the stats against the Blues!

Offline BlindDruid

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Official Lalime Watch...... (Vol. 1: July 17/03 - Dec.5/04)
« Reply #13 on: July 18, 2003, 11:47:16 AM »
My 2 cents - Lalime has done a lot of good for and with the Sens.  He has grown considerably since arriving on the scene and will grow considerably more.  Yes there are times when he really sucked in net and his defense had to pull it up a notch to save him and there are also times when the defense sucked and Lalime shined.  It really shows game after game that they have confidence in each other. Thats what makes the team so good.  Everyone one plays their part and are there to support each other.  Lalime has a couple of years before he could be considered "elite" but in my books I consider him in the top 3 or 4 goalies at this time mainly on what I mentioned above and that is the relationship that exists between him the players in front of the crease.  The real test would be if he had a bunch of different players in front of him, how good would he be then?
Time passes, things change, the Sens WILL WIN the CUP. 
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Offline JustLearning

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Re: The Lalime debate
« Reply #14 on: July 18, 2003, 11:53:38 AM »
Quote from: DallasSENSFan
Quote from: docawesome
As Otherdave mentioned in a previous post:
Quote
Lalime is an average goaltender whose style works very well in Ottawa's system. His weaknesses are exposed when the team in front of him doesn't hold up their end of the bargain.


I think OD speaks truth when he says that Lalime's style works very well behind Ottawa's defence. But I think there's a lot more to it than just that.

4 points:

1-Looks average at times.

2-Looks elite at times. Example - OT in game 6 in New Jersey.

3-Looks bad at times. (But so do all goaltenders)

4-looks as good as the defence in front of him.

So overall, taking all 4 of those points and making a salad, is Lalime elite? Or is he just average?

In my opinion Lalime is kind of stuck in between (I know thats a lame interpretation). You cannot say that Lalime is "just average" because Hacket, Dafoe, Salo, and Cloutier are just average. Since he is better than all of those 4, he can't be classified as an average goaltender.

Lalime is not an elite goaltender either. Currently, there are only 3 elite goaltenders in the league - Roy, Hasek, and Brodeur. Lalime is not as good as any of those 3.

So where does Lalime rank in the hierarchy of NHL goaltenders? Is there a name for it?

doc

P.S. I argued for 5 pages with DallasSensFan that Lalime is elite. Now I admit that Lalime is not elite. I guess I'm going to get shot by the Dallas Mafia or something. :mrgreen:


It's Ok Doc, some of us are quicker than others :lol:
Ouch! It's bad enough to have said something and have it dome back to haunt you but to have it in writing...there's just no escaping it
I'm really going to miss you A-Train  :byebye:

Offline Otherdave

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Official Lalime Watch...... (Vol. 1: July 17/03 - Dec.5/04)
« Reply #15 on: July 18, 2003, 11:57:06 AM »
Since my name has been invoked in vain, I suppose I should weigh in here.

First of all I acknowledge that Lalime's been the best goaltender the Sens have ever had, and I'm really in his corner. I was critical of Lalime during the latter part of this season, and I stand by that critique: he's a sound but not stellar goaltender who has some obvious (to dedicated fans) deficiencies in his style.

HOWEVER, I have to say that his play has improved substantially from March to May. Unlike (say) a Jim Carrey, who never could address the fundamental flaw in his game, Lalime seems to be going over the same tapes his opponents do, and constantly works on addressing his weaknesses.

For example, early in the playoffs Lalime let in a lot of shots high to the stick side, and in particular under his right arm. Later we saw him checking and double checking his post positioning to make sure that he could cover the near side better, particularly on the right, and let his glove hand work the empty space to his left.

I used to post a semi-regular 'Lalimewatch' on the official Sens board, initially to prove my point that he was an 'average goaltender'. The gradual statistical improvement in his play since I started following him closely, however, has tempered my criticism.

One of the things I'm most curious about in the coming season is to see if Lalime's able to keep his play at the decidedly above-average level he achieved in the playoffs this year.

Other Dave
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Offline Pylon

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Official Lalime Watch...... (Vol. 1: July 17/03 - Dec.5/04)
« Reply #16 on: July 18, 2003, 12:19:09 PM »
Dave:

I agree wholeheartedly that Lalime has had problems with some fundamentals over the years.  I just think that he has addressed them and has now earned the title "elite".  Like you, I noticed the improvement within the playoffs - I'd argue that it's been one continuous line of improvement, based on a very strong base, over the past few years.

IMO, Lalime's "there".  As someone mentioned, he just needs the hardware to confirm it.

Offline JustLearning

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« Reply #17 on: July 18, 2003, 12:35:16 PM »
IMHO for me to say that Patrick is 'elite' at this point in his career would mean that he is already the very best he can be and that's not true. He will be in that league in the very near future if he keep improving at the rate that he is at the moment. Both Patrick and the team will reach that pinnacle together. 'Elite' is a word I'm saving for when I feel he has improved from being 'very good' to 'almost perfect'.
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Offline Jenn_#11fan

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Official Lalime Watch...... (Vol. 1: July 17/03 - Dec.5/04)
« Reply #18 on: July 18, 2003, 12:41:15 PM »
Quote from: DallasSENSFan
Ok....Now that all your brains have thawed out  :lol:  Your coming around to what I was saying in the first place.  :roll:

AVERAGE and soon to be Elite!


He's NOT average!!! I feel like a broken record lol!  :lol: He's excellent soon to be elite, not average.

Average is Jeff Hacket and the like....as already mentioned.

Offline DallasSENSFan

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Official Lalime Watch...... (Vol. 1: July 17/03 - Dec.5/04)
« Reply #19 on: July 18, 2003, 01:38:58 PM »
Quote from: Jenn#40_fan
Quote from: DallasSENSFan
Ok....Now that all your brains have thawed out  :lol:  Your coming around to what I was saying in the first place.  :roll:

AVERAGE and soon to be Elite!


He's NOT average!!! I feel like a broken record lol!  :lol: He's excellent soon to be elite, not average.

Average is Jeff Hacket and the like....as already mentioned.


AVERAGE! :lol:
16 playoff wins=Holy Grail.....Sens 2006...Can't wait to pad the stats against the Blues!